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[Feedback] Shield > Armour – Detailed Explanation

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Fatal Absolution
#1 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:16  |  Edited by: Arkena Wyrnspire
This thread has been superceded by another, more detailed one on the same topic.
Though there has been a dev response to this one, it failed to address the core issues.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=87752&find=unread
Posting more walls of text. Cool




This is a thread about the infantry balance, not the vehicle balance. Please restrain yourselves from complaining about vehicle balance in this thread.
Similarly, please stay on topic. Posts like ‘lol dust sux’ and ‘forget armour, fix x’ are not welcome.

I have been armour tanking since the start of Chromosome. I may be biased, but I have tried to avoid that as much as possible in this report. Despite that, it will likely come across that I am strongly supporting armour, and that is true. I truly believe that armour is inferior to shields, though. I have also specced into shields with an alternate character to try and gauge balance.

I will start off with the negatives for armour. There are positives, and I will come to those, but they are outweighed by the negatives as opposed to shield. I have bolded some paragraphs to denote the start of a subsection (because titles are hard).

Armour is worse than shield for a number of reasons. Here is why:

Armour is significantly slower than shield, and mobility is exceedingly important. At the same time, armour cannot attain the buffer tank of shield, nor the recharge. The recharge through fire is nice, but given the recharge delay on shields is so short and the recharge on shield is so much higher, shield wins out on recharge overall. In the time it takes to be killed, armour might repair 30 HP with some strong reps. Fully rep fit it might be more except buffer is so low at that point that you die much quicker.

Shield doesn’t have to fit reppers, so it can devote its resources to buffer. This means that although armour inherently gives higher buffer HP, it actually gets similar or lower buffer HP. The balance between plates and extenders contributes to this – shield extenders, as you go up the levels, give a much higher amount of HP proportionally that armour. In addition to this, the penalty for armour plates goes up much higher proportionally as you go through the tiers than the HP bonus, making the highest tier plates, the complex plates, simply not worth using.

Here are the numbers:
Basic Shield Extender – 22 HP
Enhanced Shield Extender – 33 HP
Complex Shield Extender – 66 HP
The complex is 3x as effective as the basic.
Basic Armour Plate – 65 HP
Enhanced Armour Plate – 87 HP
Complex Armour Plate – 115 HP
The complex is approximately 1.76x as effective as the basic.
This isn’t it, however – armour plates have penalties associated with them as well.
Basic Armour Plate – 3% penalty
Enhanced Armour Plate – 5% penalty
Complex Armour Plate – 10% penalty

Militia Armour Plate - 40 HP
Militia Shield Extender - 22 HP
Note that the militia armour plate is worse compared to the basic than the shield extender - the shield extender is identical to the standard in terms of the added HP, whereas the armour plate has a fair chunk less.

The complex penalty is 3.3x as harsh as the basic – this is even more than the shield benefit proportion!
The penalty for the plates is disproportionate to the gain, and as a direct result of this complex plates are frequently replaced by enhanced plates. Shield tanks don’t have to make this sacrifice, and there is no penalty for shielding, so shield tankers can use complex shield modules without any problems.

The next reason armour is inferior to shield is because of slot layout. Shield tankers can use their lowslots for whatever, whereas armour dedicates it to tank. Of course, shield tanks dedicate their midslots to tank, however, bar damage mods and tank, midslots are less useful than lowslots. Damage modifiers are the only notable non-shield tank midslot module, and shield tanks can still compromise to fit them and have more HP than armour. Armour tanks can’t compromise their tank to fit it without making significant sacrifices in their tank which shields don’t have to make.
Low slots, on the other hand, can be used for fitting mods and biotic mods, both of which can be extremely effective and useful, and biotic mods widen the mobility gap even further, which is important. We start to get the failure of the Gallente design philosophy here – they use short range, high damage weapons, but with armour they can’t get in range to use them.
Shield tanks can actually improve their tank further with their low slots as well – shield regulators are low slot modules, thus the open slots which they have can be used to back up their tank more. This widens the gap between shield tanks and armour tanks.

Non-shield tank mods in midslots:
Damage modifiers (Very effective, but can still be fitted on shields)
Myofibril Stimulants (lol)

Non-armour tank mods in lowslots:
Shield Regulators (Can be used to improve shield tank with the free slots!)
Kinetic Catalyzers (Mobility gap)
Cardiac Regulators (Mobility gap)
Precision/Scan Strength Enhancers
Scan Range Amplifiers
Profile Dampeners
CPU Enhancers
PG Upgrades
Codebreakers

There seems to be a bit of a disparity here, hrm?

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

EUrobro

Fatal Absolution
#2 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:16  |  Edited by: Arkena Wyrnspire
There’s more though. Shield tanks require less SP to use effectively than armour tanks. This may seem dubious – at first glance shield has three skills against armour’s two. Two of them are not necessary – as both regulators and rechargers aren’t actually necessary to achieve a strong shield tank, only one skill, the shield extension skill, needs to be bought with SP, compared to the two that armour tanks must get in order to have a strong tank.

Armour repairers are weak compared to natural shield regeneration. This is particularly notable at the lower end of the scale, where armour reps do practically nothing unless you wait in cover for a while. With basic gear, assuming 300 HP, a shield tanker needs to wait 15 seconds to ‘heal’. The armour tanker, using a basic rep, needs to wait 150 seconds. That is a factor of 10 difference at the basic level. That’s huge, and it discourages people from going into armour because the basic level is so ineffective. That’s also without fitting any modules for the shield tanker – the shield tanker didn’t need to fit rechargers. The armour tanker did.
At the high end of the scale, complex reps are significantly more effective. At 5 HP/s, even under fire, things look better for the armour tanks. However, shield at this stage can have 30 HP/s without fitting modules, and only has about 4 seconds of delay before recharging. In 4 seconds, the armour rep regenerates 5 HP. On the fifth second, shields immediately outstrip armour by regenerating 30, compared to 25 for armour. On the sixth, it’s 60 vs 30, and it only gets worse from there.
Multiple repairers can be fitted to mitigate this to a degree, but this reduces the number of plates that can be fitted (although that’s limited anyway by the mobility penalties) and this makes armour have a lower buffer HP than shield, and the regen overall is still lower.
Regeneration under fire isn’t worth the lower repair rate with armour at the moment, because if you’re under constant enough fire you will likely be dead, and if/when the damage stops shields are superior to armour when regenerating.

Resistances also do not favour armour on the current battlefield. SMGs, HMGs, Flaylocks, Mass Drivers, and locus grenades all do more damage to armour. Shield tanks take less damage from all of these sources, except scrambler rifles and flux grenades.
Flux grenades might be seen as a significant counter to shields, but locus grenades are actually similarly effective against armour. If an armour tanker is in the radius of a good grenade, then it’s likely to kill the armour tanker outright. Shield tanks are much more capable of withstanding a locus grenade blast, and a flux grenade doesn’t kill, so the shield tanker just needs to duck back and wait for his shields to recharge, which doesn’t take long.

Explosives actually do a massive 150% damage against armour, while doing reduced damage against shields. That's completely ridiculous - there is no weapon that even comes close to doing that against shields. There's a difference of 80% damage between an armour tanker and a shield tanker when being hit by a grenade. Flux grenades may do vast amounts of damage against shield - an Allotek flux grenade might do 1800 shield HP damage, but this is restricted to shields only. That might be a slight advantage for armour, but a Core locus grenade will do 900 armour damage (enough to one shot any medium armour suit). This damage can actually kill the player as well, as opposed to flux which allows the shield tanker to retreat and regenerate. While splash damage isn't entirely accurate as displayed (like being close to the centre will do more damage), the Core locus will only do 420 to a shield tanker. That's under half of what it did to the armour tanker, and easily survivable even if hit solidly by the grenade if you have a decent shield tank.

The bonuses on the armour tanking assault suits are also completely stupid. The Gallente assault suit, for example, has a bonus to shield regeneration rate. What?
Shield regen rate?
On an armour suit?
Clearly bonuses to 1/6th of the suit's EHP are needed as opposed to bonuses for 5/6ths.

There's also less reason to spec into armour, because three races can shield tank very effectively, as opposed to just one for armour tank. It gives you more utility if you spec into multiple races if you use shields.

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

EUrobro

Fatal Absolution
#3 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:16  |  Edited by: Arkena Wyrnspire
It’s not all bad for armour. The ability of logistics to heal armour is significant – it outpaces local armour repairs by a lot, and this happens under fire. This is a good thing for armour.
Again, though, I believe there are mitigating factors for this advantage. Having a logistics need to repair an armour tanker takes a gun off the field, so firepower against enemies is reduced. The repair rate is also very similar to shield recharge (except the prototype focused repair tool, which is in its own class and good), so shield tankers don’t really need repairs.
Though shield tanks can compromise their tank to fit damage modifiers, armour tanks can still fit more. This is one of the few places that armour beats shields.

Another thing is that fitting costs are lower for armour in terms of CPU (though marginally higher for PG).

Armour is better off for CPU, but the tank overall is still worse. Here are two examples:
Let's compare two tank examples, with 5 relevant slots for each tank. This is discounting the extra tank shields can get from lows.
5 Complex shield extenders will give you 330 HP for 270/55.
You need to fit 3 plates to get 345 HP (closer to the shield value). It's less CPU/PG, at 90/36, but you're now 30% slower as well, instead of 20% slower. You're also taking up 3 of 4 or 5 slots at proto level.
To get regen on that armour, it's essential to fit armour repairers. Even if you do, the shield regen is still vastly superior to armour regen. So let's say you dedicate your two slots to complex armour repairers (and you need complex reps, the enhanced and basics don't cut it). That gives you 90/22 in addition to 90/36.

So 180/58.
Those 5 slots get you a 30% slowdown and a 17.5 HP/s regen (because this would be on a logi, with 5 lows). It'll give you marginally more HP than a shield tank, though!
So let's look at what the shield tank gets.
25 HP/s regen with a short delay, and no slowdown. Also 1 or 5 HP/s armour, so no need to fit a rep. The delay can be reduced to so little time that it barely matters, and even with a 4 second delay shields will outpace armour in regenerating up to full HP. In this case, armour gets to be slower, regenerate slower, aim worse, and that's for 15 HP. There are a number of other reasons this is even worse - for example, resistances - but I covered those in the elsewhere in the OP.

Notably, if the shield tank can't fit, they can use a CPU module.

There are a few solutions to this problem that I would suggest. Please feel free to debate these – I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of both shield and armour tankers.
1. Increase repair rate, especially at the basic level. I would suggest 4, 7, and 10 HP/s for the repair modules. This is a huge increase, but I think it’s needed to make repair modules effective. It also has the effect of making them have a noticeable effect for newbies.
2. Change the mobility penalty on the armour plates. It’s very significant at the moment, especially for complex plates, which leads to complex plates being rarely used. A good idea would be to change the speed penalty to a stamina penalty, so it isn’t as harsh, but still impedes the mobility slightly. Also, reduce the penalty, so it’s something like 2%, 4%, and 6%. This would let complex plates actually be used. This isn't necessary if armour is buffed much - this would be a notable difference between shields and armour, the mobility vs HP tradeoff. It's important to maintain that difference and not make them too similar.
3. Increase the HP armour plates give to be in line with shields – 65, 110, and 175. Again, this would make complex plates used. Not precise values, just to show the basic idea - the basic plate might need to be tweaked to keep the progression balanced. Kitten Empress suggested a good set of numbers here, which I have put in the 'Notable Feedback' section at the end of my post.
4. Change the bonuses on the armour suits to be something that actually fits an armour suit. The amarr suit has a good example of this - a repair bonus (though this is on the logistics suit, and it's the assault suits that needs these). An armour rep bonus would be good on a Gallente suit, for example, and a plate bonus for an Amarr suit.
5. Increase the base speed of armour tanking suits, improving the outcome when the plates are added. This encourages shield tanking on armour suits as well, though, so this on its own isn't sufficient. Credit to BL4CKST4R for the suggestion. This works best thematically with (overused example, but Gallente are the main armour tankers) Gallente, because of their short range gear, they need to get into range quicker.
6. Increase the delay before recharge on shields. This would emphasise the constant nature of armour repairers, and make it more significant, as well as helping to balance between the regeneration rates.

These are just suggested solutions, and these aren’t precise numbers. All of them together would be too much with the current numbers, but something needs to be done. Again, it should be emphasised that all of them together would make armour much, much better unless the numbers were small.

The possibility that shield and armour might become very similar is something to be concerned about. Shield should retain higher mobility in the end, but armour needs to be worth the tradeoff and the mobility can't be so bad that it's not worth it.


Again, please feel free to debate these – I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of both shield and armour tankers. What would you guys suggest for helping armour? How would you go about doing it?


TL;DR (Understandable):
Armour gets remote repair.
Armour is (debatably) easier to fit.
Armour repairs under fire.

Armour is worse than shields.
Armour is much slower.
Armour gets less HP.
Armour gets less regen.
Armour takes more damage.
Armour has less utility.
Armour is harder to spec into.

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

EUrobro

Fatal Absolution
#4 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:16  |  Edited by: Arkena Wyrnspire
Reserved for notable feedback.
I've actually mostly stopped maintaining this because there's been so much and I've run out of space. Thanks, guys!

EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:
Make passive shield regen slower, add shield transfer arrays. Fix modules accordingly, giving armor a pure HP advantage (still) unless shield extenders get a noteworthy penalty.

This is notable in that it touches on the effectiveness of shield regen - I would suggest increasing the delay before regen rather than decreasing the regen rate though.

Kitten Empress wrote:

Also, instead of increasing the armor hp to such a high place, put complex plate to 44 hp.
So 22/33/44.
And then put complex plates at 130.
So 65/97/130.
This would put shields and armor inline in terms of increase but won't put armor at super uber high hp.

These are some fairly good numbers in my opinion for HP balance between the two classes.

Alten hilt made an excellent post describing more issues on the third page.

alten hilt wrote:

Speed tank is king! I've mentioned this in a previous feedback post, But due to the way DUST applies reverse acceleration penalties to fast rotational movement, it is impossible to hit fast moving targets at close range. Shield Tanking is currently better, not just because of the reasons you mentioned, but because you can only speed tank if you shield tank (or pure gank with damage modifiers).

This is a very good point - Speed tanks help in a very large number of ways. Not only do they help you get between objectives quicker, enhancing power projection and range control, it makes it much harder for other players to hit you. The gulf between shield and armour tanking is not simply statistical - it's something that has to be observed on the battlefield as well. This is part of the reason for how ineffective heavies can be (however, this is another topic). Being able to reliably hit your target can overwhelm any kind of tank in dust, and armour makes it easier to be hit by someone, while simultaneously shield makes it more difficult.

alten hilt wrote:

Also, neither the scrambler rifle nor the Flux grenade are significant counters to shield tanking.

While at first glance, the flux grenade seems like a fantastic counter, in practice it's a lot worse. The damage is very good and wipes out shields - but if you use locus grenades instead, you can one shot armour tankers. It doesn't help that locus grenades have an obscene damage increase against armour, and a reduction against shields. Flux becomes more effective against shields only as long as the target has very strong shields - if you use a locus instead, you have a shot at outright killing them. If a shield tanker is fluxed, they also have the luxury of being able to take cover.

The scrambler rifle is the only significant anti-shield weapon in the game right now - the laser rifle is barely worth mentioning due to over-nerfing in Uprising.
Thus, the onus is on the scrambler rifle to beat the shield tanks. In the end, however, it fails to address the balance.
It does this for a few reasons. Primarily, the damage modifier isn't harsh enough against shields. It's 120% - anti-armour weapons have 150% damage modifiers. It also remains quite effective against armour. Not as effective, sure, but the lowered mobility of the armour tank means it's more vulnerable to being hit by a charge shot or headshotted, which can drop even the toughest armour tank quickly. Shields may take more damage, but that's overly balanced out by the way they take less actual hits.

alten hilt wrote:

What if shield extenders actually extended the dropsuit's hit box? Isn't that what a shield EXTENDER is actually doing...extending the shield? It would work something like this. If a shield extender is fitted, and the dropsuit's shield is active (not depleted) then the hitbox would be increased according to the penalty associated with the shield extender module. This penalty would increase the better the module and the penalty would stack the more modules fitted. When the shield depletes, the hitbox returns to its normal value until the shield begins to recharge.

This is actually one of my favourite ideas for a shield penalty. I responded to this at length on page 3 - you'll have to read teh full post to see it.

Alten hilt also mentioned a few other issues and good solutions. His post is very good, check it out.

RAN OUT OF QUOTES : I won't give my input until I am online and you include PG/CPU costs of said modules
You totally glanced over an area where armor is favorable
: RAN OUT OF QUOTES

This is true (partially) - I have edited to reflect this.

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

EUrobro

Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
#5 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:21
Remote Armor Repair. Find a logi. Hug your logi. Love your logi.
Fatal Absolution
#6 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:39
Treablo James Howard wrote:
Remote Armor Repair. Find a logi. Hug your logi. Love your logi.

I covered this.
It takes a gun off the field, and shield regen is similarly effective.

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

EUrobro

WarRavens
League of Infamy
#7 Posted: 2013.06.01 12:54  |  Edited by: BL4CKST4R
  • Add the Armor Honeycombing skill from EVE. This gives a 5% reduction to the movement penalty per level of armor modules
  • reduce the movement penalty proportionally to the armor increase. Basic -> Enhanced is a 25% armor increase, so the penalty should increase by 25%, which so the penalty should be roughly 3.75%, Enhanced -> Complex is roughly 25% so the penalty should be 4.69%.
  • GIVE SUITS THAT FOCUS ON ARMOR TANKING, BONUSES TO ARMOR USAGE! This is probably the most important thing that would need to be looked at before changing armor tanking, because if we change all the armor modules and skills etc, then what we will create is good armor tanks, but better shield tanks. Shield tanks can stack more complex modules than armor tanks and on top of that they would now have lower penalties for armor tanking so they can go fully defensive an out tank us even more, or use up armor modules and use their excessive High slots for weapon modifiers.
    Fatal Absolution
    #8 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:00
    BL4CKST4R wrote:
  • Add the Armor Honeycombing skill from EVE. This gives a 5% reduction to the movement penalty per level of armor modules
  • reduce the movement penalty proportionally to the armor increase. Basic -> Enhanced is a 25% armor increase, so the penalty should increase by 25%, which so the penalty should be roughly 3.75%, Enhanced -> Complex is roughly 25% so the penalty should be 4.69%.
  • GIVE SUITS THAT FOCUS ON ARMOR TANKING, BONUSES TO ARMOR USAGE! This is probably the most important thing that would need to be looked at before changing armor tanking, because if we change all the armor modules and skills etc, then what we will create is good armor tanks, but better shield tanks. Shield tanks can stack more complex modules than armor tanks and on top of that they would now have lower penalties for armor tanking so they can go fully defensive an out tank us even more, or use up armor modules and use their excessive High slots for weapon modifiers.


    1. We don't really need more SP sinks for armour right now. Also, a 5% per level reduction to the penalty translates to a 2.5% change at maximum, with nearly 1 mil SP spent. That's not really helpful, imo, and certainly not worth the SP.

    2. I agree. I suggested that the ratios be adjusted so the complex is worth 3x the basic instead of under 2x - the penalties would then be 3%, 6%, and 9%, though I've suggested lower numbers.

    3. Completely agree. That's absolutely needed. Armour needs adjustment across a number of issues, and suits is one important one.

    You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

    EUrobro

    WarRavens
    League of Infamy
    #9 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:23  |  Edited by: BL4CKST4R
    Every time I make a post suggesting to fix armor I can't ever suggest anything without thinking at how much shield tanks would benefit from it, so the only way to really fix it is to add passives for the Armor races for just being the race, or increase the speed of all suits that focus on using armor so when the penalty hits it would put us on par with a normal suit that focuses on shields while both having an equal EHP with equal investment.

    Also I believe that armor should fragment and increase the damage we take from explosives progressively, so instead of a MD doing 130% damage initially it would start out at 100% and go up as our armor goes down; almost everything on the field is made to destroy armor so we should have a fighting chance at least. Flux grenades should also have the ability disrupt the recharge delay and have a EMP effect, so if I get fluxed my shields would take longer to recharge and my sensors would be disrupted pretty much a flash bang/grenade.
    Fatal Absolution
    #10 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:28
    BL4CKST4R wrote:
    Every time I make a post suggesting to fix armor I can't ever suggest anything without thinking at how much shield tanks would benefit from it, so the only way to really fix it is to add passives for the Armor races for just being the race, or increase the speed of all suits that focus on using armor so when the penalty hits it would put us on par with a normal suit that focuses on shields while both having an equal EHP with equal investment.

    Also I believe that armor should fragment and increase the damage we take from explosives progressively, so instead of a MD doing 130% damage initially it would start out at 100% and go up as our armor goes down; almost everything on the field is made to destroy armor so we should have a fighting chance at least. Flux grenades should also have the ability disrupt the recharge delay and have a EMP effect, so if I get fluxed my shields would take longer to recharge and my sensors would be disrupted pretty much a flash bang/grenade.


    A straight buff to armour probably wouldn't help shield tankers much, unless they're dual tanking, in which case it's not a problem.
    Increasing the base speed of armour suits would be nice - in EvE (I hate to use this as an example but it works) Gallente ships are faster than average, and this mitigates the penalties of armour plates. The same applies to minmatar armour ships. I like this idea - I'll add it to the OP.

    Whilst a progressive system would be cool, it would probably be needlessly complicated to implement. Perhaps the base resistances should simply be better?
    Flux disrupting shield recharge further would also be nice, but I think this should be less about nerfing shields and more about buffing armour. It's worth thinking about, though.

    Have a +1 for your feedback, thanks.

    You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

    EUrobro

    WarRavens
    League of Infamy
    #11 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:38
    Yeah I strayed a bit off topic, I started thinking about other stuff. The biggest problem with armor is mitigating the penalty specially since it increases disproportionately to its bonus. The best course of action is making the penalty proportionate to the bonus, while giving classes that focus on armor for survival an edge when using it.
    Ametat Security
    Amarr Empire
    #12 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:40
    BL4CKST4R wrote:
    Every time I make a post suggesting to fix armor I can't ever suggest anything without thinking at how much shield tanks would benefit from it, so the only way to really fix it is to add passives for the Armor races for just being the race, or increase the speed of all suits that focus on using armor so when the penalty hits it would put us on par with a normal suit that focuses on shields while both having an equal EHP with equal investment.

    Also I believe that armor should fragment and increase the damage we take from explosives progressively, so instead of a MD doing 130% damage initially it would start out at 100% and go up as our armor goes down; almost everything on the field is made to destroy armor so we should have a fighting chance at least. Flux grenades should also have the ability disrupt the recharge delay and have a EMP effect, so if I get fluxed my shields would take longer to recharge and my sensors would be disrupted pretty much a flash bang/grenade.

    Hmm, the fragment effect is a cool one and should be added.
    Also, so what if they dual tank?
    We can dual tank too.
    We can also fit damage mods.
    DUST University
    Ivy League
    #13 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:41
    For dropsuits, one thing to consider with a speed increase is that, in combination with lots of low slots on armour tanking suits, the modules that increase speed would now make speed tanking easier as well. Would a fast Gallente scout benefit out of proportion? A Gallente prototype scout has 4 low slots and 5.5 m/s move, 7.6 m/s sprint right now.

    It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.

    Ametat Security
    Amarr Empire
    #14 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:52
    S Park Finner wrote:
    For dropsuits, one thing to consider with a speed increase is that, in combination with lots of low slots on armour tanking suits, the modules that increase speed would now make speed tanking easier as well. Would a fast Gallente scout benefit out of proportion? A Gallente prototype scout has 4 low slots and 5.5 m/s move, 7.6 m/s sprint right now.

    This is why we need to replace the speed penalty with stamina, scouts are heavily affected by it.
    Ametat Security
    Amarr Empire
    #15 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:56  |  Edited by: Kitten Empress
    All of these fixes together WILL BE too much, however tweaking the numbers here and there would be good.
    With these numbers you can get 454 armor hp + 50hp/s regenration.
    Or 1030hp with 15hp/s regeneration.
    So yeah. (This is on a Gallente logi)

    Also, instead of increasing the armor hp to such a high place, put complex extender to 44 hp.
    So 22/33/44.
    And then put complex plates at 130.
    So 65/97/130.
    This would put shields and armor inline in terms of increase but won't put armor at super uber high hp.
    WarRavens
    League of Infamy
    #16 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:56
    Kitten Empress wrote:
    BL4CKST4R wrote:
    Every time I make a post suggesting to fix armor I can't ever suggest anything without thinking at how much shield tanks would benefit from it, so the only way to really fix it is to add passives for the Armor races for just being the race, or increase the speed of all suits that focus on using armor so when the penalty hits it would put us on par with a normal suit that focuses on shields while both having an equal EHP with equal investment.

    Also I believe that armor should fragment and increase the damage we take from explosives progressively, so instead of a MD doing 130% damage initially it would start out at 100% and go up as our armor goes down; almost everything on the field is made to destroy armor so we should have a fighting chance at least. Flux grenades should also have the ability disrupt the recharge delay and have a EMP effect, so if I get fluxed my shields would take longer to recharge and my sensors would be disrupted pretty much a flash bang/grenade.

    Hmm, the fragment effect is a cool one and should be added.
    Also, so what if they dual tank?
    We can dual tank too.
    We can also fit damage mods.


    We can't dual tank as well as shield tanks can because of how easier it is for them to stack HP. On a Assault ck.0 I can get 758 EHP and 4.64 speed with a Complex damage modifer, using 3 Complex shield extenders and 1 basic 1 enhanced armor plate. On a Assault gk.0 I can get 686 EHP with and 4.64 speed with a Complex damage modifier, using 2 Complex shield extenders and 1 basic 1 enhanced armor plate. The only way for the gk.0 to get the same EHP as the Assault is to add a basic armor plate but that would mean I would be slower and I also would be more focused on armor than shields therefore worse at dual tanking.

    S Park Finner wrote:
    For dropsuits, one thing to consider with a speed increase is that, in combination with lots of low slots on armour tanking suits, the modules that increase speed would now make speed tanking easier as well. Would a fast Gallente scout benefit out of proportion? A Gallente prototype scout has 4 low slots and 5.5 m/s move, 7.6 m/s sprint right now.


    I meant a passive increase to the suits speed itself, a very small increase actually between like 3%-6% increase in suit speed, so when adding a armor module the speed drops to around current base speed, essentially negating the penalty of one armor module.
    Fatal Absolution
    #17 Posted: 2013.06.01 13:59
    Kitten Empress wrote:
    All of these fixes together WILL BE too much, however tweaking the numbers here and there would be good.
    With these numbers you can get 454 armor hp + 50hp/s regenration.
    Or 1030hp with 15hp/s regeneration.
    So yeah. (This is one a Gallente logi)

    Also, instead of increasing the armor hp to such a high place, put complex plate to 44 hp.
    So 22/33/44.
    And then put complex plates at 130.
    So 65/97/130.
    This would put shields and armor inline in terms of increase but won't put armor at super uber high hp.


    That would work, yeah.
    It would nerf shield tanking fairly significantly at the same time as buffing armour quite a bit, though, so that's perhaps not ideal.

    You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

    EUrobro

    Ametat Security
    Amarr Empire
    #18 Posted: 2013.06.01 14:01
    Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
    Kitten Empress wrote:
    All of these fixes together WILL BE too much, however tweaking the numbers here and there would be good.
    With these numbers you can get 454 armor hp + 50hp/s regenration.
    Or 1030hp with 15hp/s regeneration.
    So yeah. (This is one a Gallente logi)

    Also, instead of increasing the armor hp to such a high place, put complex plate to 44 hp.
    So 22/33/44.
    And then put complex plates at 130.
    So 65/97/130.
    This would put shields and armor inline in terms of increase but won't put armor at super uber high hp.


    That would work, yeah.
    It would nerf shield tanking fairly significantly at the same time as buffing armour quite a bit, though, so that's perhaps not ideal.

    Its uber buff vs nerf and buff.
    Ametat Security
    Amarr Empire
    #19 Posted: 2013.06.01 14:10
    Hey CCP FoxFour, its time for you to shine!
    We know you're a Gallente bro, push the people responsible to balance!

    Me and Arkena promise, if you manage to make them balance armor and shield, we will stop calling you SoxFour.
    WarRavens
    League of Infamy
    #20 Posted: 2013.06.01 14:15
    Kitten Empress wrote:
    Hey CCP FoxFour, its time for you to shine!
    We know you're a Gallente bro, push the people responsible to balance!

    Me and Arkena promise, if you manage to make them balance armor and shield, we will stop calling you SoxFour.


    I don't think devs read these posts as much as they should :(
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