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Free-to-play Subscription hybrid.

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Immortal Guides
#21 Posted: 2016.10.14 15:55
Pokey Dravon makes a good point though. As long as they produce a lot of flashy Skins for sale, they should not have any trouble making a profit even with a completely Free to Play model.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Immortal Guides
#22 Posted: 2016.10.14 16:00
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
They gotta get paid man. You may have bought boosters, and I started throwing some decent cash at them towards the end of the game, but not everyone was like that. A lot of players not only played entirely for free, but also proto-stomped a hell of a lot of new players (revenue) away from CCP.


There is the drawback that if you have to pay for the more advanced aspects of the game it might encourage more proto-stompping in PUBs.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

#23 Posted: 2016.10.14 16:07
Fox Gaden wrote:
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
They gotta get paid man. You may have bought boosters, and I started throwing some decent cash at them towards the end of the game, but not everyone was like that. A lot of players not only played entirely for free, but also proto-stomped a hell of a lot of new players (revenue) away from CCP.


There is the drawback that if you have to pay for the more advanced aspects of the game it might encourage more proto-stompping in PUBs.

A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has skill and courage.

You can shine up a potato turd but it is still gonna be a turd. I slaughtered many a proto in militia gear, because I'm not a shiny turd nugget.

Sanity is a myth

Immortal Guides
#24 Posted: 2016.10.14 16:13
General Vahzz wrote:
Fox Gaden wrote:
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
They gotta get paid man. You may have bought boosters, and I started throwing some decent cash at them towards the end of the game, but not everyone was like that. A lot of players not only played entirely for free, but also proto-stomped a hell of a lot of new players (revenue) away from CCP.


There is the drawback that if you have to pay for the more advanced aspects of the game it might encourage more proto-stompping in PUBs.

A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has skill and courage.

You can shine up a potato turd but it is still gonna be a turd. I slaughtered many a proto in militia gear, because I'm not a shiny turd nugget.

I was worried more about the good players who did not want to pay to play the advanced modes, than I was about the crappy players who sell Mercenary Licenses to buy Proto gear.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Ancient Exiles.
#25 Posted: 2016.10.14 17:18
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Alena Asakura wrote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
If you're so insistent that no one get "a free ride" then just make it sub based and call it a day. Otherwise many people will always refuse to spend a cent on the game.

I'd rather have a sub than call it free to play but basically make it so you need to pay every month to enjoy the entire game. And if you offer an ISK option? People will simply use that instead and never spend a cent on the game.

But they do that with EvE. PLEXes are bought and sold around New Eden all the time, and they are the way the vets mostly pay for their subscriptions. It works for CCP because people buy PLEXes from CCP to sell in game to raise funds. So CCP gets their money either way.


True but those sell for about a billion ISK now...which takes more than a handful of matches worth of time. Even with Alpha Clones you can still go anywhere and participate with anyone, there is no lockout of facwar or anything of the sort and largely you can train everything that makes sense for a player starting out.

Do not confuse Alpha Clones as making EVE F2P. Alpha clones are simply a fancy way of saying "Un-timed demo" to give players a feel for EVE.

For Nova I'd take the million ISK option over then $1 every time. Not that a dollar is much to me, but I'd be annoyed by the fact that I'm being charged just so I can play a certain match type. Id go out of my way to make sure I didn't spend real money on it just to make a point. But again I have a personal vendetta against being nickle and dimed to death just to get core gameplay features. It is absolutely the fastest way to turn me off from playing a game.


Well no problem with that, However I really don't agree it's necessary to have a vendetta against paying for a service... especially when you said you spent money anyways on the game? Anyways, the free option remains in my proposed system.


All things considered, I think the proposed system is much more offering strong encouragement to keep paying, rather than forcing players to.

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Rogue Clones
The Bastard Cartel
#26 Posted: 2016.10.14 23:27
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Alena Asakura wrote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
If you're so insistent that no one get "a free ride" then just make it sub based and call it a day. Otherwise many people will always refuse to spend a cent on the game.

I'd rather have a sub than call it free to play but basically make it so you need to pay every month to enjoy the entire game. And if you offer an ISK option? People will simply use that instead and never spend a cent on the game.

But they do that with EvE. PLEXes are bought and sold around New Eden all the time, and they are the way the vets mostly pay for their subscriptions. It works for CCP because people buy PLEXes from CCP to sell in game to raise funds. So CCP gets their money either way.


True but those sell for about a billion ISK now...which takes more than a handful of matches worth of time. Even with Alpha Clones you can still go anywhere and participate with anyone, there is no lockout of facwar or anything of the sort and largely you can train everything that makes sense for a player starting out.

Do not confuse Alpha Clones as making EVE F2P. Alpha clones are simply a fancy way of saying "Un-timed demo" to give players a feel for EVE.

For Nova I'd take the million ISK option over then $1 every time. Not that a dollar is much to me, but I'd be annoyed by the fact that I'm being charged just so I can play a certain match type. Id go out of my way to make sure I didn't spend real money on it just to make a point. But again I have a personal vendetta against being nickle and dimed to death just to get core gameplay features. It is absolutely the fastest way to turn me off from playing a game.

I believe all F2P should be limiting with availability of all limited options by payment. So for me, Alpha Clones ARE F2P. Certainly, for CCP, that's the way they're seeing them.
Ancient Exiles.
#27 Posted: 2016.10.15 01:20  |  Edited by: Talos Vagheitan
Fox Gaden wrote:
I actually like it.

If you buy an Officer License you should get a "Supporter" tag on your forum avatar to show you are financially supporting the game.


Also, if people can buy the licenses and sell them on the open market for ISK, then CCP has the people with money in real life paying for the people who only have money in game. The 40 year old with a good job who dies too much to afford Proto suits can buy Mercenary Licenses and sell them on the open market to the 13 year old who is rocking in PC but does not have a credit card.


Love the idea of a permanent "supporter" badge for those who buy the primo package

- Edit: perhaps a unique SKIN only Officer license.holders get

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OSG Planetary Operations
#28 Posted: 2016.10.15 05:38  |  Edited by: Pokey Dravon
We are going to cover this topic on the Biomassed podcast this Sunday. If you're interested in coming on to chat about your position (regardless of what it is) shoot me an email at pokey.dravon@gmail.com with your forum name and I'll get you the details on how to link up with us on Mumble.

Show is this Sunday the 16th at 9PM Eastern

www.biomassed.net if you havent heard of the show.
Ancient Exiles.
#29 Posted: 2016.10.15 05:53
Cool. Ill shoot you an email

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0uter.Heaven
#30 Posted: 2016.10.16 02:41
As if the entry barrier for PC was not high enough already.

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OSG Planetary Operations
#31 Posted: 2016.10.16 18:46  |  Edited by: Pokey Dravon
As of this post I have not received any emails requesting info to come onto the show. If you did send an email, please check the address and try again. You'll need some time to get set up so please send it well in advance so we can get your audio sorted out ahead of time.
Ancient Exiles.
#32 Posted: 2016.10.17 03:56
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:
As if the entry barrier for PC was not high enough already.


I feel that's more an issue of terrible NPE and complete lack of matchmaking, and a progression path littered with cliffs and plateaus.

Anyone who can't afford 1,000,000 ISK per month can't afford to do PC anyways.

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Ancient Exiles.
#33 Posted: 2016.10.17 04:00
Pokey Dravon wrote:
As of this post I have not received any emails requesting info to come onto the show. If you did send an email, please check the address and try again. You'll need some time to get set up so please send it well in advance so we can get your audio sorted out ahead of time.


Yeah, sorry, I got busy today.

Hope it went well

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OSG Planetary Operations
#34 Posted: 2016.10.17 04:52
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
As of this post I have not received any emails requesting info to come onto the show. If you did send an email, please check the address and try again. You'll need some time to get set up so please send it well in advance so we can get your audio sorted out ahead of time.


Yeah, sorry, I got busy today.

Hope it went well


No worries mate. Show is up: https://www.twitch.tv/biomassedpodcast/v/95437416

Full Show with cleaned audio and show notes will be available on www.biomassed.net in a few days
Ancient Exiles.
#35 Posted: 2016.10.18 20:48  |  Edited by: Talos Vagheitan
Just listened to the podcast. Good show. Wish I could have been there to clarify a few things! lol.

I'll quickly respond to a few of the points here.

The term "Walling-off" was used a lot, which really isn't accurate at all considering you could grind the 1M ISK in a few matches. And numerous other free ways to obtain. I know you guys mentioned the ISK option, but it was really overlooked overall with all the talk of 'players without credit cards' etc. One of my main objectives was to take players who are already buying AUR, and reward them more (without making it P2W).


And here's my final reasoning on this:

A game cannot just provide all of it's content for free
. We've been pretty spoil with Dust. Dust was the best F2P model I've seen, but it was subsidized by profits from EVE ONLINE. My fear is that CCP will see the Dust model as a financial failure, and the next iteration will not be as good for us as it was with Dust.

Personally, I don't think financing the game strictly through cosmetic items is enough.

I'm trying to propose a system which preserves the benefits of Dust's system (not Pay-to-Win, not restrictive), while providing stronger encouragement for players to pay more on a regular basis, with special attention NOT to keep anything behind a "paywall".



Anyways, be careful what you wish for! The financial system CCP implements may have you wishing for a system closer to this.


--------------------- EDIT

I also want to add: It was mentioned that noobs should not be barred from FW (even though they essentially wouldn't be). But pubs are absolutely the best place for new players, and new players flooding FW was completely to the detriment of the FW game mode. It was never balanced, ever. Vets Q-synced onto one side, while noobs had all races X'd, and ended up on the other side. The noobs filled up one team, and got slaughtered badly every time. Caldari couldn't win a match for the first 2 years, then it flipped the other way. Noobs had no fun in FW, and ruined the fun for others.

There are other factors too, like the small player count making matchmaking impossible. Having to "jumpstart" FW in the last 8 months of Dust was ridiculous (hence why I believe the more players in the game the better).


But anyways: Making it 'slightly harder' for noobs to enter FW is not a bad thing.

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#36 Posted: 2016.10.18 21:30
Again I wish I could have had you on there to properly explain your position. I don't like having things feel one sided so I do apologize for that or for any misrepresentation of your idea.

I do apologize for not covering the other options for obtaining the license aside from ISK and Cash. As they seem be a random chance of obtaining that would depend greatly on drop rates and required time to play to have a good chance of receiving one, I chose to stick with the more concrete and guaranteed ways of obtaining them.

We did however cover the ISK option and the difficulty of finding the proper middle ground. The 1 million ISK option for example would, in my opinion, lend people to pick that option far more often than the dollar simply due the fact that it's free and easily obtainable from simply playing the game as you always do. I could be wrong in my prediction of player behavior but that's my personal opinion on the matter.

Additionally I disagree that a game cannot offer all of its content for free. See games like League of Legends. Immensely popular and highly profitable with 100% of its content available for free (sans cosmetics of course). Cash can of course make things more convenient, but ultimately you can still access all of the game without spending anything.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you that players should be encouraged to spend cash on a regular basis as that is the cornerstone of a fiscally successful F2P game. However as a personal opinion, I feel that walling off or even making it more difficult to access game modes for free is a quick way to put rifts in your player groups.

I would much rather explore other options for monetization (beyond cosmetics because you are right, it may not be enough) that don't restrict game modes with barriers of entry like that. I feel it's a dangerous line of thought that could get ugly very quickly if left unchecked and would rather avoid it entirely.

That being said you still have an open invite to join us on the show to talk about this topic or any other. We may not agree on this particular issue but you clearly want to participate in good discussion and be constructive which is what we look for.

Ancient Exiles.
#37 Posted: 2016.10.18 21:38
Sounds good. Let me know the next one and I'll try to make it work

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#38 Posted: 2016.10.18 21:38  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
Selling us different merc quarters will all kinds of goodies to fill it with would be a great way to earn $$$ without interupting balance. Make them cost a **** load of ISK and make them account bound so you can't buy with cash to get ISK. Room with a view of Jita, anyone? (even if it's just simulated)

People eat that **** up

If people could join in on your room, it would encourage sales a lot.
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
#39 Posted: 2016.10.18 21:46
Nerp!

Foolish pleb, the merc quarters in dust werent even unique, they are reused assets from eve, when you get out your ship on eve you are stuck all alone in the same apartment


They arent going to make anything new like that for you, maybe if they make them for eve, in a couple years after that you MAY get a hand me down


Ha ha ha, neckbeards with money talks, broke ass plebs walk

Dude did you hear about charlie sheen

OSG Planetary Operations
#40 Posted: 2016.10.18 21:50
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
Sounds good. Let me know the next one and I'll try to make it work


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