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[Proposal] Pilot Suits

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The Hundred Acre Hood
#1 Posted: 2015.12.15 02:34  |  Edited by: Shamarskii Simon
Pilot Suits: The proposal
By 'Shamarskii Simon'

This is not final. Suggestions and criticism will be gladly appreciated.

Objective: to introduce a new method to approach vehicles in Dust 514 through the use of suits. These suits will possess the ability to alter the vehicles modules and/or properties without interfering with vehicle fittings. These suits are complementary to vehicles, not supplementary.



Through analysis of multiple conversations and topics referring to pilot suits, I've came to the conclusion that pilot suits must alter the vehicle in question; however, without causing non-pilot suit users to become ineffective in vehicular combat. Pilot suits have the ability to add a dynamic nature to vehicles, rather than fits staying predictable and simplistic. This creates an SP sink for vehicle pilots (pet peeve... “Tanker.” I always think of those gas trucks first...) and increases vehicle diversity.

The main forum topic which the discussion has come from is
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194343
A topic by Spkr4theDead mentioning pilot suits. Further along, Pokey, Derrith, True, and I, have stated a few ideas referring to the suits, also. Ignore the.. “disagreements” that occur if you're going to read the topic.

You can also check out Pokey's document about a Vehicle Redesign...
"It needs to be revised... you can see some of my general thoughts on page 8: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16DwpratAsrJ1zbxry8VFqoeAMdFGuc-IsHNSPULZK6M/edit?usp=sharing "

… which also influenced/reinforced my ideas for pilot suits.

Part 1: The bonuses
Multiple people have said what the suit bonus should be, but I believe in keeping the bonuses simple and direct. Each bonus is affecting that races style: Amarr is armor, Caldari is shield, Gallente is armor repair, and Minmatar is speed. This is the most basic racial bonuses can get. If it is too complex, it can cause a situation of absolutes: the suit will be too strong, or too weak.

Amarr suits shall effect total aHP.
Caldari suits shall effect total sHP (or shield recharge, or shield recharge delay).
Gallente suits shall effect total aHP recovery.
Minmatar suits shall effect top speed (m/s) and acceleration (m/s^2).

The bonus must be small to create small differences between pilot users and non pilot users. Thus a 2% increase per level is reasonable. The bonuses should be applied to either modules, the base vehicle itself, or the vehicle fitting.

Another idea is that the bonus is increased to 4 or 5% per level, and is applied to Vehicle Link Modules (which I will cover in more detail later) of the same type (aHP modifying modules for Amarr, speed for Minmatar, etc.) only. 25% of 10% is just a 12.5% module.

As for which to choose, that is for further discussion.

If it is applied to the vehicle, this brings a small issue referring to innate reps... I recommend reducing the innate repair rate firstly. If that is insufficient then reducing repair modules repair rates may be required -- especially at the rate things are going at right now.

Also, the bonus is applied to all vehicles. Racial suit is not for racial vehicle. As True Admance said,

“...pilot suits supplementing [sic] a specific style but at the same time not defining it. Aka the bonuses I feel should be applicable to all vehicles so that it is not simply a matter of picking the Caldari Pilot suit for the Caldari tank”


This will lead to people using an intricate combination of both suit and vehicle, where the suit “compensates for a lack of slots on particular hulls” – Pokey. and makes up for the lack of vehicles, too.

Part 2: The Suit and Modules
For fitting the suits themselves, I believe the suit should only have a sidearm and 1 equipment slot (for the vehicle is the source of the pilot suits' uses). As Git Gud Bruh said

ThePilot suit should be survivable enough for you to get back to safety and call in another vehicle, not survivable enough to

The suit should mimic a light suit but have more eHP, lower stamina, and rudimentary electronic abilities (well... they are listed as light suits in Assets after all.). The suit should also be extremely cheap for they are complementary to vehicles and vehicles already have a high isk cost. A fully proto fit Pilot Suit should be less than 30k isk, but that is my opinion.

The pilot suits shall also have modules which affect the vehicle. I'll call these modules Vehicle Link Modules (VLMs for short). VLMs will be similar to rigs in Eve (for a lack of better terminology), where it strengthens one aspect but a drawback on another**. The pilot suit bonus will be a 15% reduction to VLM resource costs per level (Forcing VLMs to shine on pilot suits and discouraging the use of VLMs on non-pilot suits [similar to Cloak with Scout].).

For clarification, a VLM has nothing to do with the fitting resources of a vehicle. As True Admance, Takahiro Kashuken, Pokey Dravon, Spkr4theDead, Mad Syringe, and I have realized that

“Anything modifying PG/CPU for *vehicles* attached to a *dropsuit* is going to get messy on the technical side” – Pokey


An example of what a VLM will do is increase armor repair rate, while lowering aHP. To make up for lost aHP, I will add aHP through VLM but lower acceleration and top speed.

Another example would be damage control. Reducing damage of one damage type, while increasing damage of the other. Realistically speaking, the bulk of AV is anti-armor so armor damage control will cause a larger boost to anti-shield weaponry (possibly including flux being capable to damage armor) compared to shield damage control.

I will list several VLMs just to give you an idea of what I mean. I do not intend for these to be the VLM, they are only examples (I tried to be realistic though). Random names also... Attempting to be self explanatory... simplicity?
The Hundred Acre Hood
#2 Posted: 2015.12.15 02:34  |  Edited by: Shamarskii Simon
-Shield Regulation: Decrease to shield recharge delays, decrease to shield Hit Points (sHP)
-Armor Regeneration: Increase to armor Hit Points recovered per second (aHP/s), decrease in total aHP
-Ammo augmentation 1:increase ammo reserves and rate of fire, decrease damage
-Ammo augmentation 2: increase damage, reduce ammo reserves and rate of fire
-Damage control; armor: Reduce anti-armor damage, increase anti-shield damage.
-Damage control; shield: Reduce anti-shield damage, increase anti-armor damage.
-Ferroscale armor (use old name.... from 1.6?): Increase top speed and acceleration, decrease aHP
-Heavy armor: Increase aHP, decrease top speed and acceleration.
-Shield battery: Increase sHP, decrease shield recharge rate.
-Shield recharger: Increase shield recharge rate, decrease sHP.
-High capacity reactor: Increase module up time, increase module down time significantly.
-Lightweight reactor: Decrease module down time, decrease module up time significantly.

Other modules targeting Utilities (Scan precision, Scan range, mCru spawn time modifier, turret rotation speed, etc) should have small/no negative attributes. These include small speed and torque modifiers.

These modules should be applied like skills. I'll call this “active” application. (“Passive” application is like creating fittings. Anything affecting PG/CPU for example)

Active application is like this...

This turret only has 100 base ammo.
I have “turret ammo” at level 5. This is a 25% increase to my ammo.
If I go into the seat, I gain 25% ammo...
I have 125 ammo now.

So a VLM actively applies like...

This shield extender adds 100 base sHP.
I have a PRO Shield Battery on my pilot suit. This is a 15% increase to sHP.
If I go into the pilot seat, I gain 15% more sHP from my extender.
I have 115 sHP now.

This already happens to RoF on ADS, Ammo, Reload, and Rotation Speed of turrets. The only difference is that VLMs will affect more things. This should be possible because old vehicle modules affected far more things than what they affect now. Also, I believe (someone verify?) that the old modules and vehicles are still in the game, just locked away from us. Thus, no need to make lots of “new” content, and it may be simple to duplicate. Since Turrets do not have anything for the skills alone, unlike weapons (which have 5% reduction to kick, dispersion, etc.), we can also link VLM to be unlocked along with the corresponding skill in the vehicle upgrades/turrets skill trees.

**One thing that was addressed in Spkr's topic is the fact VLM's have both a positive and a negative attribute. I strongly believe it should be like that (like some Rigs in EvE) because it makes each fit special. It also encourages thoughtful fitting, choosing the suit to strengthen the vehicle in the right circumstances while weakening it in another (balancing). The negative should not be greater than the positive, and some low level VLMs should not have any negative because their bonuses will be smaller than their high level counterparts.

One thing I would like is people to list their ideas of some VLMs they would like to see in-game. I will make a suggestion list in a reserved post


If the suit bonus is applied to all aspects of a vehicle, the VLMs should have a very small increase to vehicle attributes. A simple guideline is “how much is too much?” None should go over 15%, and even then 15% might be too much in some cases. These affects have to be SMALL enough to make non-pilots viable, but just LARGE enough to make pilots noticeable. All modules should have a stacking penalty, and can only fit a max amount of three modules (like mylofibs) or maybe even 2. I believe some can go 3%, 5%, 7% or 5%, 7%, 10%, etc.

Avallo Kanter addresses module stacking:

“Will it be possible to have pilot skills added to vehicles when a pilot suit sits in a valid turret as well... There are two ways this could work (But I will only address the way I find most balanced.):

2) Pilot Suits in a Gunner Seat only provide bonuses to that Gun, [id est] being in a small blaster turret would only affect that turret.

+++ Allows players to directly bonus the weapon they are using.
+++ Makes Turrets (in the hands of a skilled gunner pilot) very effective
+++ Allows dedicated Gunners a way to progress in DUST

--- Pilots would need separate fittings for being a gunner.
--- Potentially would overtune [sic] Small Turret damage.”


I believe turret modules should be based on the turret skill tree. E.G If the pilot has reload 5, and the gunner has reload 5, the gunner's turret should “have” reload 10. This already happens. Any other VLMs, especially ones targeting the vehicle itself (E.G: hp, speed, etc), should only be accounted for from the pilot seat. This already occurs with things like armor repair/shield regeneration skill; where only the pilot's skill influences these attributes.
The Hundred Acre Hood
#3 Posted: 2015.12.15 02:35  |  Edited by: Shamarskii Simon
Part 3: VLM List.
Credit to Vulpes Dolosus for the name “Vehicle Link Modules.”
You're welcome to give your own suggestions! please do!! i'll update this post eh!

(I'm stealing some ideas from Tread Loudly 2's topic, just changing them into modules:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220122)

– Blast radius (missiles) : 3%, 5%, 7% increase to radius. 1%, 3%, 5% decrease to damage.
– Dispersion (blaster, future Min turret): 3%, 5%, 7% decrease to dispersion. 1%, 3%, 5% decrease to damage.
– Heat build up (rail, future Ama turret): 3%, 5%, 7% decrease to heat build-up. 1%, 3%, 5% decrease to damage.
– Shield Damage control: 2%, 6%, 10% resistance to anti-shield, 1%, 4%, 7% weakness to anti-armor.
– Armor Damage control: 2%, 6%, 10% resistance to anti-armor, 3%, 7%, 12% weakness to anti-shield.
– Turret Damage (any increase will have decrease in RoF and magazine size, attempting to keep damage per mag the same)
– Turret RoF (any increase will have increase in magazine and decrease in damage, attempting to keep damage per mag the same)

-- Stabilization: x%, y%, z% reduction to impulse effect (knock-back) Bri Bub
The Hundred Acre Hood
#4 Posted: 2015.12.15 02:36  |  Edited by: Shamarskii Simon
I tried. Noooooo promises. I just thought about it over a long period of time... just i never got around to it. You are welcome to ask questions, give honest opinions... heck even curse me out over it. I just want some community involvement before i actually try a proposal yknow? I like hearing about what the people have to say.

LOL it is long overdue nevertheless. Work, school, and life itself has kept me away from the forums and my ps3 for quite awhile... I know this isn't the place but damn do i miss the community....

Anyways! Thanks for reading... give your suggestions! i have plenty of room... and will turn this post into a suggestion post too; should i run out of characters.



My first post ran out of characters!

Git Gud Bruh:
The Pilot suit should be survivable enough for you to get back to safety and call in another vehicle, not survivable enough to be useful as infantry.
Fatal Absolution
#5 Posted: 2015.12.15 03:27
Nice, a worthwhile thread. Anyway, I'm afraid my pilot math is a bit rusty, so all the help I can give is with my opinion is what I think the bonuses should be racially. I'm honestly not sure on the universal bonus, only got one on my mind universally.

Anyway, I'm going to go over the bonuses racially:
(NOTE: these bonuses are not applied at the same time, just my thoughts on them)

Amarr:
10% to vehicle precision per level (in tandem with Amarr scout)
3% to damage mod efficiency per level
2% reduction to turret head build up per level (like the assault)
2% efficiency to armor hardeners per level

Minmatar:
3% to cooldown of AB modules per level
10% reduction to armor plate speed penalty (give a reason to use GAL ADS)

Caldari:
3% reduction to shield recharge delay per level
2% reduction to active shield modules per level
2% bonus to ROF of rocket and/or rail turrets
4% bonus to missile splash radius per level (should give it a 3.00 meter splash if my math is right)

Gallente:
2% reduction to armor hardener cooldown per level (against giving better reps, Incubus already has powerful reps in dogfights)
5% bonus to blaster blast radius per level
3% reduction to blaster/rail heat buildup per level


I'm sure I'm forgetting a few of my ideas, but I just found this awesome flight song. Hope I helped.

99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg

Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.

Ancient Exiles.
#6 Posted: 2015.12.16 03:09
Make it official. Coward.

Join the DUST STEAM GROUP

100+ members and growing!

Commando Perkone
Caldari State
#7 Posted: 2015.12.16 11:55
Pilot bonus: 2% increase to vehicle armor/shield resistance per level

Amarr: 2% increase to efficacy of armor hardeners modules, 2% reduction to heat buildup per level
Caldari: 2% increase in shield hardener efficacy, 3% increase in missile splash radius per level
Gallente: 2% increase in armor repairer efficacy per level, 3% decrease in cooldown time per level
Minmatar: 2% increase in agility (acceleration and turn speed), 3% decrease to cooldown per level

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

The Hundred Acre Hood
#8 Posted: 2015.12.16 20:50
I'll reply in bold...
Derrith Erador wrote:


Anyway, I'm going to go over the bonuses racially:
(NOTE: these bonuses are not applied at the same time, just my thoughts on them)

Amarr:
10% to vehicle precision per level (in tandem with Amarr scout)
3% to damage mod efficiency per level
2% reduction to turret head build up per level (like the assault)
2% efficiency to armor hardeners per level

see, these bonuses make sense now... but it kinda defines the fits they'll be used on. Other than precision but... that's a whole other story. It's not bad, but not too good either... in the sense that it is TOO specific. Buff or nerf one of them and the suit is useful, or useless.

Minmatar:
3% to cooldown of AB modules per level
10% reduction to armor plate speed penalty (give a reason to use GAL ADS) YES! but not to the plate... to the vehicle itself? Similar to what i said with 10% (at level 5 nevertheless) bonus to speed and acceleration.


not bad on minmatar... definite plus 1


Caldari:
3% reduction to shield recharge delay per level +1
2% reduction to active shield modules per level
2% bonus to ROF of rocket and/or rail turrets Python + Caldari suit... nuff said
4% bonus to missile splash radius per level (should give it a 3.00 meter splash if my math is right) works good as a turret VLM actually... if your math is correct :P

Gallente:
2% reduction to armor hardener cooldown per level (against giving better reps, Incubus already has powerful reps in dogfights)
5% bonus to blaster blast radius per level
3% reduction to blaster/rail heat buildup per level Incubus + Gallente suit... nuff said

i don't really feel your gallente bonuses that much either... similar with the amarr ones... good now, but if something changes... not so good.


I'm sure I'm forgetting a few of my ideas, but I just found this awesome flight song. Hope I helped.

"You were my thrills, you were my pills
You dropped a bomb on me
You turn me out, you turn me on
You turned me loose, then you turned me wrong"

definitely helped. Cool appreciate it

The Hundred Acre Hood
#9 Posted: 2015.12.16 21:06  |  Edited by: Shamarskii Simon
I'll reply in bold...
Alena Ventrallis wrote:
Pilot bonus: 2% increase to vehicle armor/shield resistance per level

hmm.............. okay. I feel this one. Scrap the resistance VLM, have it straight in the suit bonus instead. How about shield resist for Cal/Min, armor for Ama/Gal? how would that look?

Amarr: 2% increase to efficacy of armor hardeners modules, 2% reduction to heat buildup per level
Caldari: 2% increase in shield hardener efficacy, 3% increase in missile splash radius per level
Gallente: 2% increase in armor repairer efficacy per level, 3% decrease in cooldown time per level
Minmatar: 2% increase in agility (acceleration and turn speed), 3% decrease to cooldown per level

I see that you went racially with the turrets... would that work better as a VLM? It kinda makes sense but it kinda racial or bust... which i'm kinda avoiding suit skill wise... I'm looking at it like this:

Use an Ama pilot suit... shield vehicle... python.
10% more aHP... but in a python is it really worth it? I just get 96 more aHP.... It would be better to use a Cal suit for 155.5 more sHP instead.

Good for all, best racially... or based on fit (I like to call these special fits) is what I tried to get with my bonuses.

“...pilot suits supplementing [sic] a specific style but at the same time not defining it. Aka the bonuses I feel should be applicable to all vehicles so that it is not simply a matter of picking the Caldari Pilot suit for the Caldari tank”

Thanks! It's helping me make some ideas for modules Smile



The Hundred Acre Hood
#10 Posted: 2015.12.16 21:08  |  Edited by: Shamarskii Simon
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
Make it official. Coward.


How to apply the suit bonuses (to vehicle, vehicle modules, or VLM) and modules is all i need.

Do you think it's good enough to be Official? Hmm....!
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
#11 Posted: 2015.12.16 22:05
Very interesting and well thought out read..... and I can't stop grinning about having had such an old statement quoted.

Perhaps you can clarify something more me. When it comes to the Damage Control VLM's what does anti-armour and anti-shield refer to?

A proportional increase or decrease against armour/shield resistances universally or increased resistances vs weapons designed to target shield or armour universally across both stats.

E.G- Is it

+10% Armour Resistance vs All Sources, - 12% Shield Resistance vs All Sources

or

+10% Armour and Shield Resistance vs Missile, Projectile, and Hybrid Rail, -12% Armour and Shield Resistance vs Hybrid Blasters, Laser, and EM Missile

Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.

The Hundred Acre Hood
#12 Posted: 2015.12.16 22:34
True Adamance wrote:


Perhaps you can clarify something more me. When it comes to the Damage Control VLM's what does anti-armour and anti-shield refer to? No prob

...increased resistances vs weapons designed to target shield or armour universally across both stats.
...

+10% Armour and Shield Resistance vs Missile, Projectile, and Hybrid Rail, -12% Armour and Shield Resistance vs Hybrid Blasters, Laser, and EM Missile


Lol I tried to give credit where it was due. Blink
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
#13 Posted: 2015.12.16 22:57
An interesting VLM to be sure. Very useful if you are aware of the specific kinds of enemy vehicles present against you (e.g if you fought my corporation) but otherwise very risky to employ.

The Heat module would also have to take into consideration whether the Large and Small Amarr turrets employed the mechanics of the existing Laser Rifle or something more like Scrambler technology which could skew intended design slightly.

Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.

Skullbreakers
#14 Posted: 2015.12.17 02:25
Very much in favour.

+1

Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

Dead TOOMEY
#15 Posted: 2015.12.17 18:22
Excellent post!

Possible VLM: Stability module - crap pilots like myself have difficulty flying in and maintaining altitude and stabilizing to either shoot from the nose or to allow gunners to take aim; could also counter the gripe many pilots have of swarms doing limited direct damage but knocking them into buildings or upside-down like a pinball; no idea what % stability grant would be appropriate and this may be useful to only entry-level Charles Lindbergs so should probably be on an earlier node of the pilot skill tree and not be a prerequisite to later nodes

Be just and if you can't be just be arbitrary.

The Hundred Acre Hood
#16 Posted: 2015.12.17 21:58
True Adamance wrote:

The Heat module would also have to take into consideration whether the Large and Small Amarr turrets employed the mechanics of the existing Laser Rifle or something more like Scrambler technology which could skew intended design slightly.



Good point... if the damage is exponential... with a linear reduction it wouldn't really work as intended would it...? longer firing = more damage... more damage applied exponentially; nuff said.


This one needs work if the Amarr turret is like a laser rifle....

I think exponential damage reduction could make up for it.... maybe by 100 rounds it'll be a 20% reduction to damage. (Just guessing... Help me out?)
The Hundred Acre Hood
#17 Posted: 2015.12.17 22:01
Bri Bub wrote:
Excellent post!

Possible VLM: Stability module - crap pilots like myself have difficulty flying in and maintaining altitude and stabilizing to either shoot from the nose or to allow gunners to take aim; could also counter the gripe many pilots have of swarms doing limited direct damage but knocking them into buildings or upside-down like a pinball; no idea what % stability grant would be appropriate and this may be useful to only entry-level Charles Lindbergs so should probably be on an earlier node of the pilot skill tree and not be a prerequisite to later nodes


If Rattati changed the knockback effect by swarms, the variable exists... just what is it named??

good idea though... will add to the list as soon as we have some %'s
The Naughty Ninjas
#18 Posted: 2015.12.18 00:14  |  Edited by: THEAMAZING POTHEAD
We already have a problem where too many skills and sp are required for tanks that virtually every bit of, even every single small turret fitting optimization 5, is required for vastly superior tank survivability. Its about 55-60mil for everything, and thats combined with 1.3mil isk tanks, that lose hard to heat sinked rails, all the bajillions of commandos, super powerful AV grenades, and officer spam with alldins and kubos.
We just need to reduce the SP and isk of tanks for christ sake, and add the pilot suits of course, but keep away from more modules.
Keep it simple-adress the problems-make it viable to run tanks all the time by keeping a correlation between effectiveness and cost. Cus right now tankings way too unbelievably expensive for being less effective that a STD AR on an infantry suit

Corps: P.R.O.---O.H.---Not Guilty/Pure Innocence---Nyain San---T.o.P.

The Hundred Acre Hood
#19 Posted: 2015.12.18 00:40
THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:
We already have a problem where too many skills and sp are required for tanks that virtually every bit of, even every single small turret fitting optimization 5, is required for vastly superior tank survivability. Its about 55-60mil for everything, and thats combined with 1.3mil isk tanks, that lose hard to heat sinked rails, all the bajillions of commandos, super powerful AV grenades, and officer spam with alldins and kubos.
We just need to reduce the SP and isk of tanks for christ sake, and add the pilot suits of course, but keep away from more modules.
Keep it simple-adress the problems-make it viable to run tanks all the time by keeping a correlation between effectiveness and cost. Cus right now tankings way too unbelievably expensive for being less effective that a STD AR on an infantry suit


Can you explain what you're saying please? I don't quite understand what you're getting at :D
Skullbreakers
#20 Posted: 2015.12.18 16:50
Shamarskii Simon wrote:
f Rattati changed the knockback effect by swarms, the variable exists... just what is it named??

Impulse effect, I think?

Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

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