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Amarr Commando Balancing

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warravens
Imperium Eden
#1 Posted: 2015.10.30 17:17
Here is a link to the Amarr Commando thread I made in GD. I made this thread because I surveyed 24 people and 21/24 said it was underpowered. I also realize that almost none (correct me if I am wrong) of the CPM play the Amarr Commando or if they do, they do not play it frequently.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=219746&find=unread

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Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
#2 Posted: 2015.10.31 01:04
I actually run the amarr commando frequently when i have time to rock matches. When you take it in the context of the AScR + laser rifle it is amazing as a suppression platform as long as you are dealing with shield suits.

In closer the AScR does amazingly well killing most targets, but you have to pick your fights carefully.

What I feel is golding the amarr commando back is the same thing holding the calmando back: lack of relevant weapon choices.

You have scramblers and laser rifles that take advantage of the ammamdos strengths. The caldari have rail rifles and sniper rifles. Swarms are more of a consolation prize IMHO.

But the gallente have a better overall feel with their weapons and the minmatar are easier to apply in battle.

The amarr commandos can be solidly tanked, or fit for mobility, and have decent EHP overall.

The bonuses aren't terrible, but the weapon selection just isn't there.

Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.

warravens
Imperium Eden
#3 Posted: 2015.10.31 01:07
How do you feel about extra PG? And a BLR?

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Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
#4 Posted: 2015.10.31 01:22
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
How do you feel about extra PG? And a BLR?


I'm in wait and see mode honestly. I haven't had any trouble fitting my commandos the way others claim, but I also don't follow accepted meta either.

If I see a compelling need to talk to rattati about it, I will, but in the meantime if you come up with suggestions, write them down. Build a spreadsheet and show us the pros, cons and intent you want to show.

That kind of thing tends to grab attention.

Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.

warravens
Imperium Eden
#5 Posted: 2015.10.31 01:26
Breakin Stuff wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
How do you feel about extra PG? And a BLR?


I'm in wait and see mode honestly. I haven't had any trouble fitting my commandos the way others claim, but I also don't follow accepted meta either.

If I see a compelling need to talk to rattati about it, I will, but in the meantime if you come up with suggestions, write them down. Build a spreadsheet and show us the pros, cons and intent you want to show.

That kind of thing tends to grab attention.

Will do, the things I mainly want to change are the bonus, and the fact that the Amarr is the only Commando now without an AV weapon.

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

warravens
Imperium Eden
#6 Posted: 2015.10.31 01:42
I also want to let you know that what led me to make this thread was the report by Rattati on suit usage in PC. I am a firm believer that a suit is truly "good" when it receives regular usage in PC. I was shocked by the data as almost no one uses it in PC. In fact, I believe I was the last one to ever use it in PC.

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
#7 Posted: 2015.10.31 19:15
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
I also want to let you know that what led me to make this thread was the report by Rattati on suit usage in PC. I am a firm believer that a suit is truly "good" when it receives regular usage in PC. I was shocked by the data as almost no one uses it in PC. In fact, I believe I was the last one to ever use it in PC.

people are always going to gravitate to what they percieve as "best" overall for competitive modes like PC.

In the absence of a true FOTM setup, people will gravitate to what is most readily familiar to them in gameplay style. For most players that familiarity comes from assault dropsuits.

When a clear superiority is eliminated, most people will revert to the standard FPS method of assault + battle rifle.

Commandos are an oddball niche setup, and sentinels are sluggish to anyone who doesn't use them more or less exclusively and it takes a special brand of maniac to not find scouts too fragile.

Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.

warravens
Imperium Eden
#8 Posted: 2015.11.01 00:29
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QN5Ay-vDhUHdRLCI4tK3QMMDScJdlHnne5AZqjIduX0/edit?usp=sharing

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
#9 Posted: 2015.11.01 09:49
Breakin Stuff wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
I also want to let you know that what led me to make this thread was the report by Rattati on suit usage in PC. I am a firm believer that a suit is truly "good" when it receives regular usage in PC. I was shocked by the data as almost no one uses it in PC. In fact, I believe I was the last one to ever use it in PC.

people are always going to gravitate to what they percieve as "best" overall for competitive modes like PC.

In the absence of a true FOTM setup, people will gravitate to what is most readily familiar to them in gameplay style. For most players that familiarity comes from assault dropsuits.

When a clear superiority is eliminated, most people will revert to the standard FPS method of assault + battle rifle.

Commandos are an oddball niche setup, and sentinels are sluggish to anyone who doesn't use them more or less exclusively and it takes a special brand of maniac to not find scouts too fragile.

Please give us some loadouts
Highs/Lows/Light weapon/light weapon/Equipment
Apex Amar Commando what do you change or do you go Proto Isk suit to get more cpu/pg you need?
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
#10 Posted: 2015.11.01 11:22
Luther Mandrix wrote:
Breakin Stuff wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
I also want to let you know that what led me to make this thread was the report by Rattati on suit usage in PC. I am a firm believer that a suit is truly "good" when it receives regular usage in PC. I was shocked by the data as almost no one uses it in PC. In fact, I believe I was the last one to ever use it in PC.

people are always going to gravitate to what they percieve as "best" overall for competitive modes like PC.

In the absence of a true FOTM setup, people will gravitate to what is most readily familiar to them in gameplay style. For most players that familiarity comes from assault dropsuits.

When a clear superiority is eliminated, most people will revert to the standard FPS method of assault + battle rifle.

Commandos are an oddball niche setup, and sentinels are sluggish to anyone who doesn't use them more or less exclusively and it takes a special brand of maniac to not find scouts too fragile.

Please give us some loadouts
Highs/Lows/Light weapon/light weapon/Equipment
Apex Amar Commando what do you change or do you go Proto Isk suit to get more cpu/pg you need?

My amarr commandos invariably go:

Damage mod
Damage mod
Plate (Not Ferro/Reactive)
Plate (Not Ferro/Reactive)
Rep
AScR
LR
Hive

OR

Damage mod
Damage mod
Plate (Not Ferro/Reactive)
Rep
Cardiac Regulator
AScR
LR
Hive

Generally I can get this fit going at any tier. I don't use Ferroscales as the amarr focus seems to work better when you can just eat more punishment than the guy trying to kill you.

It's overly simplistic as far as loadouts go, but it works for me.

Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.

warravens
Imperium Eden
#11 Posted: 2015.11.01 15:00
Hmm, at proto can you fit all proto? I'm betting not, but I'm going to protofits just to make sure

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warravens
Imperium Eden
#12 Posted: 2015.11.01 15:08
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/12927 (Ignore the name)

As you can see here it is not possible to fit all proto on an Amarr Commando, however on Gallente Commando, which has a similar slot loadout...

http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/12927

It is much easier to fit proto and you sacrifice less than the Amarr Commando.

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
#13 Posted: 2015.11.01 19:10  |  Edited by: Luther Mandrix
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Luther Mandrix wrote:
Breakin Stuff wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
I also want to let you know that what led me to make this thread was the report by Rattati on suit usage in PC. I am a firm believer that a suit is truly "good" when it receives regular usage in PC. I was shocked by the data as almost no one uses it in PC. In fact, I believe I was the last one to ever use it in PC.

people are always going to gravitate to what they percieve as "best" overall for competitive modes like PC.

In the absence of a true FOTM setup, people will gravitate to what is most readily familiar to them in gameplay style. For most players that familiarity comes from assault dropsuits.

When a clear superiority is eliminated, most people will revert to the standard FPS method of assault + battle rifle.

Commandos are an oddball niche setup, and sentinels are sluggish to anyone who doesn't use them more or less exclusively and it takes a special brand of maniac to not find scouts too fragile.

Please give us some loadouts
Highs/Lows/Light weapon/light weapon/Equipment
Apex Amar Commando what do you change or do you go Proto Isk suit to get more cpu/pg you need?

My amarr commandos invariably go:

Damage mod
Damage mod
Plate (Not Ferro/Reactive)
Plate (Not Ferro/Reactive)
Rep
AScR
LR
Hive
Do you heat up your laser before moving it to the target or do you keep it on target as it heats up?

OR

Damage mod
Damage mod
Plate (Not Ferro/Reactive)
Rep
Cardiac Regulator
AScR
LR
Hive

Generally I can get this fit going at any tier. I don't use Ferroscales as the amarr focus seems to work better when you can just eat more punishment than the guy trying to kill you.

It's overly simplistic as far as loadouts go, but it works for me.

Do you heat up laser first then move to target or do you keep it on target as it heats up?
Nos Nothi
#14 Posted: 2015.11.01 21:49  |  Edited by: Adipem Nothi
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/12927 (Ignore the name)

As you can see here it is not possible to fit all proto on an Amarr Commando, however on Gallente Commando, which has a similar slot loadout...

http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/12927

It is much easier to fit proto and you sacrifice less than the Amarr Commando.

Your Gal Commando link isn't working. Does the loadout you're describing work on any Commando?

Commando gk.0 (invalid loadout: pg/cpu exceeded)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Plates (x2), Cmp Rep
PW: Pro AR, Pro PLC
EQ: Pro Hive

Commando ak.0 (invalid loadout: pg/cpu exceeded)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Plates (x2), Cmp Rep
PW: Pro ASCR, Pro Laser
EQ: Pro Hive

Commando mk.0 (invalid loadout: pg/cpu exceeded)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2), Cmp Shield
LS: Cmp Plates (x2)
PW: Pro MD, Pro CR
EQ: Pro Hive

Commando ck.0 (invalid loadout: pg/cpu exceeded)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2), Cmp Shield
LS: Cmp Plates (x2)
PW: Pro Rail, Pro Swarms
EQ: Pro Hive
warravens
Imperium Eden
#15 Posted: 2015.11.01 21:51
Yes you make a good point Shotty, no commando can ever go full proto, but on the Amarr Commando even more so. I think from your data (which I haven't even thought about until this point) calls for a PG/CPU reduction bonus for all Commandos. Or no?

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

Nos Nothi
#16 Posted: 2015.11.01 21:54  |  Edited by: Adipem Nothi
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
Yes you make a good point Shotty, no commando can ever go full proto, but on the Amarr Commando even more so. I think from your data (which I haven't even thought about until this point) calls for a PG/CPU reduction bonus for all Commandos. Or no?

I don't think that any suit can fit the best of everything. I'm personally OK with that. It makes choosing what to run on a given suit more interesting.
warravens
Imperium Eden
#17 Posted: 2015.11.01 21:59
Adipem Nothi wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
Yes you make a good point Shotty, no commando can ever go full proto, but on the Amarr Commando even more so. I think from your data (which I haven't even thought about until this point) calls for a PG/CPU reduction bonus for all Commandos. Or no?

I don't think that any suit can fit the best of everything. I'm personally OK with that. It makes choosing what to run on a given suit more interesting.

Yeah, but every other suit can fit more of the best than the Amarr Commando

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

Nos Nothi
#18 Posted: 2015.11.01 22:22  |  Edited by: Adipem Nothi
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
Adipem Nothi wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
Yes you make a good point Shotty, no commando can ever go full proto, but on the Amarr Commando even more so. I think from your data (which I haven't even thought about until this point) calls for a PG/CPU reduction bonus for all Commandos. Or no?

I don't think that any suit can fit the best of everything. I'm personally OK with that. It makes choosing what to run on a given suit more interesting.

Yeah, but every other suit can fit more of the best than the Amarr Commando

Not sure whether or not that's the case, but it shouldn't be tough to prove one way or the other. Let's revisit the above examples, but this time try to make them valid ...

Commando gk.0 (valid)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Plates (x2), Cmp Rep
PW: Adv AR, Adv PLC
EQ: Compact Hive

Commando ak.0 (invalid ... needs +4 PG)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Plates (x2), Cmp Rep
PW: Adv ASCR, Adv Laser
EQ: Compact Hive

Commando mk.0 (invalid ... needs +7 PG)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2), Cmp Shield
LS: Cmp Plates (x2)
PW: Adv MD, Adv CR
EQ: Compact Hive

Commando ck.0 (invalid ... needs +8 PG)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2), Cmp Shield
LS: Cmp Plates (x2)
PW: Adv Rail, Adv Swarms
EQ: Compact Hive



Compared to the others, looks to me like the GA Commando has too much flexibility. Just to be safe, swapped out the PLC (zero PG) for an ADV Shotgun + ADV AR ... still valid. If I were driving the bus, I'd be more likely to nerf GA resources than buffing the other three.
warravens
Imperium Eden
#19 Posted: 2015.11.01 22:22
Adipem Nothi wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
Adipem Nothi wrote:
XxBlazikenxX wrote:
Yes you make a good point Shotty, no commando can ever go full proto, but on the Amarr Commando even more so. I think from your data (which I haven't even thought about until this point) calls for a PG/CPU reduction bonus for all Commandos. Or no?

I don't think that any suit can fit the best of everything. I'm personally OK with that. It makes choosing what to run on a given suit more interesting.

Yeah, but every other suit can fit more of the best than the Amarr Commando

Not sure whether or not that's the case, but it shouldn't be tough to prove one way or the other. Let's revisit the above examples, but this time try to make them valid ...

Commando gk.0 (valid)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Plates (x2), Cmp Rep
PW: Adv AR, Adv PLC
EQ: Compact Hive

Commando ak.0 (invalid ... needs +4 PG)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Plates (x2), Cmp Rep
PW: Adv ASCR, Adv Laser
EQ: Compact Hive

Commando mk.0 (invalid ... needs +7 PG)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2), Cmp Shield
LS: Cmp Plates (x2)
PW: Adv MD, Adv CR
EQ: Compact Hive

Commando ck.0 (invalid ... needs +8 PG)
HS: Cmp Dmg (x2), Cmp Shield
LS: Cmp Plates (x2)
PW: Adv Rail, Adv Swarms
EQ: Compact Hive



Compared to the others, looks to me like the GA Commando has too much flexibility. Just to be safe, swapped out the PLC (zero PG) for an ADV Shotgun + ADV AR ... still valid.

I just realized that I said Amarr Commando, what I was meaning to say was Commandos in general, my mistake.

And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!

Nos Nothi
#20 Posted: 2015.11.01 22:36  |  Edited by: Adipem Nothi
Right on. If you're comparing resource constraints, I'd recommend assessing the class as a whole rather than focusing on X versus Y. At first glance, looks like you could argue that either the GA Commando has too much fitting capacity or the other three have too little. I'd defer to the commando experts, though; not really my department ... though I do very much enjoy the suits.

Here are my three favorite AM Commando loadouts to date:

HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Rep, Cmp Plate, Enh Plate
PW: Pro Laser + Adv ASCR
EQ: Compact Hive

HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Cmp Rep, Cmp Plate, Enh Plate
PW: Adv Laser + Adv Laser
EQ: Compact Hive

HS: Cmp Dmg (x2)
LS: Enh Plate (x3)
PW: Adv Laser + Adv Laser
EQ: Allotek Hive
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