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[Delta] Fixing SP Sinks.

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Don't Wanna Be
#1 Posted: 2014.07.28 19:42  |  Edited by: Logi Bro
So we know there are a significant amount of SP sinks in the skill tree currently, and I'd like to propose a fix to it. This is in General Discussions since these are my musings, and I want input before I ask they be made.

First, which skills are in need of bonuses? Here are the skills (infantry only, since I have no intimate knowledge of vehicles) that have little or no use.

Dropsuit Command
All basic dropsuit skills (12 total)
Dropsuit Upgrades
Weaponry

So, a total of 15 skills that need bonuses. To save my self a lot of typing for every bonus, let me say here that for each basic suit skill, the skill only applies to the suits that are under that skill, example: Amarr Heavy Dropsuit skill only applies to Amarr heavy basic suits, Amarr sentinels, and Amarr commandos. Here are my thoughts:

Dropsuit Command +2% base shield and armor per level

Dropsuit Upgrades +0.2 armor repair per level

Weaponry +2% all weapon reload speed per level

Amarr Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor from armor plates and ferroscale plates per level

Amarr Light Dropsuit -2% CPU/PG cost of laser weaponry per level

Amarr Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor plates and ferroscale plates

Caldari Heavy Dropsuits +2% shield from shield extenders per level

Caldari Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of rail weaponry per level

Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield extenders and shield rechargers per level

Gallente Heavy Dropsuits +2% armor repair module rate and reactive plate repair per level

Gallente Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of plasma weaponry per level

Gallente Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of armor repair modules and reactive plates per level

Minmatar Heavy Dropsuits +2% biotic module effects per level

Minmatar Light Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of biotic modules per level

Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield regulators and shield energizers per level

Please share your thoughts/comments, this is a rough draft, after all.
Team Bad Decisions
#2 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:08  |  Edited by: Ahkhomi Cypher
that +1% per lvl to dropsuit command and upgrades just feels like it will have a ridiculous trickle down effect.
i obviously didnt run any numbers but thats the first thing i noticed.

i like the idea though

Tyrant King, Opus Arcana

Don't Wanna Be
#3 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:09
Ahkhomi Cypher wrote:
that +1% per lvl to dropsuit command and upgrades just feels like it will have a ridiculous trickle down effect.
i obviously didnt run any numbers but thats the first thing i noticed.


I doubt the dropsuit command bonus would do so, but I can see how the dropsuit upgrades one would.

Maybe -1% CPU/PG cost of all modules?
Incorruptibles
#4 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:14
These are all great. I have been asking for the "dead skills" to have passive bonuses since launch day. Two of the passives that really shine to me...

Logi Bro wrote:

Dropsuit Command- +1% base shield and armor per level

Weaponry- +3% to total ammo capacity per level (+1 per level to weapons with small ammo count, ex swarm launchers, plasma cannons)


These bonuses feel like that could be added to the game in hotfix Charlie and not even need to be balanced. These are skills that literally EVERYONE will eventually level. They might as well provide some kind of incentive to get to V.

The passive relating to dropsuits will need to be carefully balanced after the CPU/PG and slot layout overhauls. I'm not saying OP's are crap, I'm just saying they need a lot of data before we can create good passives for them.
Random Gunz
#5 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:20
The +1 per level for Weaponry, in some cases, would horribly unbalance things in the cases where those weapons' ammo sizes are intentionally designed as a balancing metric. They'd have to revisit those weapons to see if they needed to be nerfed to compensate.

CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. soraya@biomassed.net for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Don't Wanna Be
#6 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:35
Soraya Xel wrote:
The +1 per level for Weaponry, in some cases, would horribly unbalance things in the cases where those weapons' ammo sizes are intentionally designed as a balancing metric. They'd have to revisit those weapons to see if they needed to be nerfed to compensate.


Are you thinking of any one specific weapon? I can't really see the 3% doing any harm, seeing as the current +5% that each weapon has only grants one extra clip when fully maxed out. The +1 per level might be more useful than the +3%, but I still don't see that being damaging in any way. If someone were really tryhard-y, they'd just squad up with someone with nanohives anyways, and total ammo capacity would be irrelevant.
Random Gunz
#7 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:38
I'm only talking about the +1 per level. On weapons like the Plasma Cannon or Forge Gun, that'd be a pretty huge buff, wouldn't it? Particularly since FGers can't carry their own nanohives.

CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. soraya@biomassed.net for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Don't Wanna Be
#8 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:39
Ripley Riley wrote:


The passive relating to dropsuits will need to be carefully balanced after the CPU/PG and slot layout overhauls. I'm not saying OP's are crap, I'm just saying they need a lot of data before we can create good passives for them.


I can definitely see how that would a problem, I was just throwing this out ahead of the Delta discussions, seeing as they have listed, "efficacy bonuses" as one of the topics of delta, and I figure this is probably one thing they can include with that.
OSG Planetary Operations
#9 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:42
General concept is solid. Most of the bonuses are solid.

The Weaponry one jumps out at me as slightly problematic but let me take a closer look over my lunch hour. Still overall excellent work. All skills should offer SOME kind of bonus, even if its small.
Don't Wanna Be
#10 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:45
Soraya Xel wrote:
I'm only talking about the +1 per level. On weapons like the Plasma Cannon or Forge Gun, that'd be a pretty huge buff, wouldn't it? Particularly since FGers can't carry their own nanohives.


I definitely see what you are saying, but it wouldn't be a huge buff, from my point of view. It wouldn't have impact on an individual situation, a dropship that wouldn't die before this bonus still wouldn't die after, it just lengthens the time the forge gunner can do his job before running back to the supply depot/nanohives.

Though I'd be more willing to change it, maybe more like +1 every other level? (That would invalidate level 5, but I can't really think of a better way to nerf that bonus)
Incorruptibles
#11 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:45  |  Edited by: Ripley Riley
Logi Bro wrote:

I can definitely see how that would a problem, I was just throwing this out ahead of the Delta discussions, seeing as they have listed, "efficacy bonuses" as one of the topics of delta, and I figure this is probably one thing they can include with that.


If all dropsuits of one racial type received a small bonus to fitting their preferred racial tanking module we might have an easier time of balancing. Just spitballing...


  • Amarr +1% to armor plate efficacy per level.
  • Gallente +2% to armor repair module rate per level.
  • Minmatar +2% shield recharger efficacy per level.
  • Caldari +1% to shield extender efficacy per level.


These bonuses would apply to any dropsuit within that races' lineup.
BurgezzE.T.F
#12 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:48
Can't really chime in on the balance but I agree there should be a bonus for all skills passively. Off the top of my head some vehicle skills that are duds are, the basic HAV skill (no need to get it past 1 it doesnt do anything further), The basic LAV skill(no REAL need to get it past 1 but if you want the Saga II you can take it to 3), No reason to get Dropship operation past 3 for ADS, And as far as I know there is no efficacy bonus for turret operation of any kind, save for unlocking more turrets.

Why does Photon gear...we will never forget.

OSG Planetary Operations
#13 Posted: 2014.07.28 20:54
If I'm right there are also vehicle skills that give no passive bonus

Real heavies use lasers

Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#14 Posted: 2014.07.28 21:05
The "roots", as I like to call them, should be something that's beneficial to newcomers, and kind of an indifference to a dude with 40 mil SP. These "roots" are the initial skills known as Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, and Weaponry. I'm thinking something along the lines of:


  • Dropsuit Command: Unlocks STD, ADV, and PRO at 1, 3, and 5.

  • -2% Dropsuit Price per level.

  • Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels.

  • -#% Equipment Duration per level.

  • Weaponry: Unlocks Instruments of Death at their respective levels.

  • -2% Weapon Price per level.


I don't know. It's something that's not necessarily game breaking, and it fills in the blanks while helping newcomers out a bit as well.

Maybe upgrades should be a price reduction, too?

  • Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels.

  • -2% Dropsuit Modules/equipment cost per level?

    Scouts United

    Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

    Don't Wanna Be
    #15 Posted: 2014.07.28 21:06
    Shadow Archeus wrote:
    If I'm right there are also vehicle skills that give no passive bonus


    I'm not really much of a vehicle guy, but if someone else were to come up with some bonuses that sound good, I'd be willing to throw them into the OP, just so long as there weren't any glaring issues with them.
    BurgezzE.T.F
    #16 Posted: 2014.07.28 21:10
    Reign Omega wrote:
    Can't really chime in on the balance but I agree there should be a bonus for all skills passively. Off the top of my head some vehicle skills that are duds are, the basic HAV skill (no need to get it past 1 it doesnt do anything further), The basic LAV skill(no REAL need to get it past 1 but if you want the Saga II you can take it to 3), No reason to get Dropship operation past 3 for ADS, And as far as I know there is no efficacy bonus for turret operation of any kind, save for unlocking more turrets.


    Some fitting reduction bonuses for Basic Dropships and LAV might be nice, or extender efficacy, hardener efficacy, something to make it worth even running these things for anything other than lolparty fun. As of right now the MLT is more effective than the STD dropship because you can hardly fit anything to make it worth flying for any amount of time for the price....

    Why does Photon gear...we will never forget.

    Don't Wanna Be
    #17 Posted: 2014.07.28 21:11
    Joel II X wrote:
    The "roots", as I like to call them, should be something that's beneficial to newcomers, and kind of an indifference to a dude with 40 mil SP. These "roots" are the initial skills known as Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, and Weaponry. I'm thinking something along the lines of:


    • Dropsuit Command: Unlocks STD, ADV, and PRO at 1, 3, and 5.

    • -2% Dropsuit Price per level.

    • Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels.

    • -#% Equipment Duration per level.

    • Weaponry: Unlocks Instruments of Death at their respective levels.

    • -2% Weapon Price per level.


    I don't know. It's something that's not necessarily game breaking, and it fills in the blanks while helping newcomers out a bit as well.

    Maybe upgrades should be a price reduction, too?

  • Dropsuit Upgrades: Unlocks whatever at their own respective levels.

  • -2% Dropsuit Modules/equipment cost per level?



    That would definitely benefit newcomers, but at the same time benefit protostompers. -10% cost is a lot more useful to someone using a 200k ISK fit than someone using a 20k ISK fit. Also, I'm not really sure that equipment duration is such a good idea, it would be of no help at all to sentinel users, and 'duration' isn't really a concept with repair tools and nanite injectors.
    Crux Special Tasks Group
    Gallente Federation
    #18 Posted: 2014.07.28 21:37
    I like the idea however, as a min assault, I think the minmatar medium bonus is practically useless compared to the others. I mean a Caldari should practically be filling all slots with shield related modules. The minmatar might use one or two biotic modules which are generally lower CPU and PG costs than shields. I think these sort of things would throw the balance Rattati has been trying to achieve out the window. I'd rather see a small bonus to base stats for these.
    Don't Wanna Be
    #19 Posted: 2014.07.29 02:43
    Boot Booter wrote:
    I like the idea however, as a min assault, I think the minmatar medium bonus is practically useless compared to the others. I mean a Caldari should practically be filling all slots with shield related modules. The minmatar might use one or two biotic modules which are generally lower CPU and PG costs than shields. I think these sort of things would throw the balance Rattati has been trying to achieve out the window. I'd rather see a small bonus to base stats for these.


    As a Minmatar Assault, is there any one thing you emphasize on all your fittings? If it were more like:

    Caldari Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield rechargers and extenders per level

    Minmatar Medium Dropsuits -2% CPU/PG cost of shield energizers and regulators per level

    Would that fit the Minmatar philosophy better?
    Fraternity of St. Venefice
    Amarr Empire
    #20 Posted: 2014.07.29 03:34
    1+ its perfect Big smile

    Give me da iskiez

    Gk0 Scout yay :)

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