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Statement from CPM0 - "State of affairs : Communication & Trust"

Author
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
#61 Posted: 2013.08.12 07:55
Midas Fool wrote:
Doomsaying from Nova Knife? Whhaaaaaaat? No way....


It's not doomsaying, it's calling out facts.

Sorry, reality isn't made up of idealisms.
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
#62 Posted: 2013.08.12 08:05
This message has been approved by Cat Merc Trolling Inc (CMTI) and has been given the cat of approval.
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
#63 Posted: 2013.08.12 08:11
The only thing that's right to do here is pulling this game and rework it from the ground up.
That's what Final Fantasy XIV did and it surely turned out to be better (while still not being a top dog).

ANYTHING else,
is a waste of our time.

CCP, HTFU. Do it.
The Southern Legion
#64 Posted: 2013.08.12 08:23
Is there a realistic chance that this ends with anything other than more promises followed by a fresh crop of excuses?

We've all heard CCP promise to improve communication plenty of times. I get that we're trying to move forward constructively and not just rehash complaints about past failures but I think it's fair to ask why the community should be taking CCP's commitment on faith. Fair enough they're giving the CPM some additional attention but that reaction needs to be followed by real, visible, meaningful change.

I don't want to start a witch hunt either but I would like to know whose reputation is on the line here (besides the CPM). Who is responsible for seeing that the necessary changes are made and, quite frankly, why should we believe them? What commitment do we actually have from CCP?

Essentially, what accountability exists here?

Because if the the answer is "none" I see no reason to believe anything is about to change.
The Southern Legion
#65 Posted: 2013.08.12 08:53
Some interesting recent notes...

There is a forge light server with all the DUST514 art assets on it. Yes that right, the same engine used for Planetside2 and ready for PS4. Planetside 2 is also testing orbital strikes and other similar dust514 style tech.

Playstation have an existing financial investment in Dust514 and were very unhappy when it didn't come out as popular as expected.

Expect to see Sony take over at least the dust side franchise and move it to forge light on PS4 in the near future...
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
#66 Posted: 2013.08.12 09:04  |  Edited by: George Moros
5Y5T3M 3RR0R wrote:

Planetside 2 is also testing orbital strikes and other similar dust514 style tech.


So, PS2 is going to communicate with EVE Tranquility server to allow EVE players to bombard PS2 players?
Wow, I would actually want to do that. Maybe you PS2 fanboys would finally stop spamming DUST forums with PS2 crap after I drop a few orbitals on your asses.

Pulvereus ergo queritor.

Isuuaya Tactical
Caldari State
#67 Posted: 2013.08.12 09:14
Kudos CCP.

Thank you for the honesty, not many gaming companies bother to present the facts in the way you guys do.

As far as I am concerned, I hope you guys 'n gals get the important stuff done and that DUST 514 can shine the way it was meant to shine.

Still, a great pity that the game is not out on the PC platform, where many EVE players have said repeatedly that the mistake was going console only.

My 2c worth o7

Good Luck CCP o/
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
#68 Posted: 2013.08.12 09:19
Dude, that wasn't CCP.
DUST University
#69 Posted: 2013.08.12 09:38  |  Edited by: Kevall Longstride
This is pretty much an accurate summation of the current situation with the game. But what the CPM and CCP are having to deal with is that poor decisions made two years ago are still having a ripple effect within the game and have slowed the pace of development within it.

Uprising 1.2 should've been the beta build first released to us for evaluation, so by my reckoning this game is roughly 1 year behind where it should be. There has been a catalogue of errors in design judgement made by CCP and left in the game too long before fixing and compounding other problems in later builds.

Without exception, every one of these mistakes could've been prevented with faster communication and feedback to the players in the forums, an actionable plan drawn up with a publicly accessible and regularly updated roadmap for the game on the forums, much like the one for Planetside 2.

I find it encouraging however that in recent weeks there seems to be a increase in community interaction from some members of the Dev team (no need to name them, we all know who they are) and this seems to be spreading to other members of the team as they begin to see the benefits of player feedback earlier in the design phase.

The move that CCP have made that gives me real hope and a raises my opitislm is that CCP Flying Scotman is now in Shanghai and part of the Dust team. With one of CCP's most senior designers now in place we should see a real change in the pace of development of Dust. But the positve effects of him being over there is unlikely to bear real fruit until 1.5/.6, so I would ask the players to give him a little time to get settled and see what changes he has to make before giving him any static.

That said however CCP should still be free to come up with ideas and plans without feeling that they should check with the CPM and community for EVERY design choice. It gets dangourously close to design by committee which is never a good thing and I believe goes slightly beyond the remit of the CPM should that end up being the case. CCP should bring in comment from the CPM and by extension the community after preparatory work is done on a feature but BEFORE resources are committed to actioning them. That way a healthy balance is struck and CCP can save time and money if the CPM can tell them that it needs more more work or if there is a problem with it.

Now, there are a number of players still out there who think that statements like this are not what CPM0 should be doing and all they should only be concerned with coming up with a way to elect CPM1.

They're entitled to that opinion but I feel that they have missed the point of CPM0 entirely. There is little point in coming up with an election plan if by the time that elected body starts their term, they're being stonewalled by a undifined process of communication and protocol for dealling with CCP. CPM1 should be able to start work on day one of their term doing what they're going to be elected to do without having to discuss who and how they should be talking to to get something done.

As someone who has decided to stand to for CPM1 when the time comes (and yes, that time will come naysayers) I'm incredibly grateful for the work that CPM0 have done so far and glad CCP didn't pick me for the gig. I would've had to say no anyway. Getting DUST University up, running and stable was something that I felt would be a better contribution for me to make to the game in the long run. Particularly as the game has zero NPE at this point, something I will be pushing very hard for should I get elected.

As to the calls from some, for CCP to start again, well thats just impracticable at this point. 18 months ago it would've have been viable once details of the next gen consoles were known (one of those ripple effect decisions I spoke of earlier) but now it would be the death of Dust.

So broadly speaking I support this statement from the CPM and the recent posts since from members of the CPM since its posting regarding conversations that they've had with CCP is encouraging and seems to have lit a fire under Shanghai.

CPM 1&2 Member

CEO of DUST University

The Exemplars
#70 Posted: 2013.08.12 10:39
Good to see you guys are trying
Caldari State
#71 Posted: 2013.08.12 11:43  |  Edited by: David Spd
Nova Knife wrote:
SoTah Pawp wrote:

Until you guys actually share what the exact details are the community is in the same boat while the CPM takes a step forward. Unless this info is being publicized - nothing is changing.


Until we've used this new information to prepare a solid game plan around the resolution of these issues and brought it forward, there's not much we can share. Like said in the above post : We intend to keep players in the loop as much as possible, but we still need to operate within the NDA.

Even if we can't share the specifics of these processes (Most of which we'll be trying to change to better involve the community as a whole anyways, which we'll push to have the revised ones put out) I can assure you that what Cmdr Wang has given us ensures that we're much, much better equipped to drive positive change, because knowing is half the battle!

Seriously. One of the best, most productive conversations we've had from CCP to date.




This whole thing is very irritating. You CPM have been talking about how SO MUCH PROGRESS is being made every time someone asks, but then you throw the "Oh, NDA. It's going places though" excuse every time.

Appreciate the stuff you guys & gal are doing but for the love of god please consider new ways of bringing this info to us.

You guys know a bunch of stuff we don't and it's great if you're excited but scraps of info that isn't really info doesn't really help imo. Until ACTUAL tangible progress is made that WE can experience this is nothing to be excted about.

This whole thread is basically CPM siding with sensible beta players in saying CCP needs to make some massive improvements to the way they do things for this game to be any good.

I swear this game's closed beta was essentially pre-alpha, open beta was alpha and release is beta. Never seen a dev team this large do so horribly with managing their game... hope I never do again either.

Sure don't envy you CPM.

P.S. Walls o' text with a Vita freaking hurts, man....

--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--

"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake

SyNergy Gaming
#72 Posted: 2013.08.12 12:01
lolCPM
lolCCP
lolDUST

we'll see if **** changes, bit late for this "hail mary" post tho nova
DUST isnt on a fast road to recovery even IF they change as well, would still take a year or more to even get to some of the pipedreams we were lured into fro the beginning.

+1 for effort but not holding my breath

Preacher of #Logic & Godfather of Molden Heath, Playing better actually competitive games

Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#73 Posted: 2013.08.12 12:17
Mavado V Noriega wrote:
lolCPM
lolCCP
lolDUST

we'll see if **** changes, bit late for this "hail mary" post tho nova
DUST isnt on a fast road to recovery even IF they change as well, would still take a year or more to even get to some of the pipedreams we were lured into fro the beginning.

+1 for effort but not holding my breath

I think all we need to ressurect this lumbering beast is core mechanics.

Imo the list of things DUST needs to make it viable(not great, not good, but viable) is fairly short and is comprised of only the core mechanics and the promised revamp to the sp system. My money says with those two areas in working order the playerbase starts to grow.

It's impossible to know how doable that is given the current codebase.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

Murder Taxi Inc.
#74 Posted: 2013.08.12 12:41
2 questions for the cpm do any of u play eve and when do u have some kind of idea that dust is going to do something for eve
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
#75 Posted: 2013.08.12 13:40
too much talk not enough action
ROGUE SPADES
#76 Posted: 2013.08.12 14:41
Re-title this: What happened to DUST 514 . So that the explanation will be easier to research once the chalk outline of this game washes away.

-hanging on 'til 1.4 out of sheer masochism...

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Rosen Association
#77 Posted: 2013.08.12 14:48
Kevall Longstride wrote:
This is pretty much an accurate summation of the current situation with the game. But what the CPM and CCP are having to deal with is that poor decisions made two years ago are still having a ripple effect within the game and have slowed the pace of development within it.

Uprising 1.2 should've been the beta build first released to us for evaluation, so by my reckoning this game is roughly 1 year behind where it should be. There has been a catalogue of errors in design judgement made by CCP and left in the game too long before fixing and compounding other problems in later builds.

Without exception, every one of these mistakes could've been prevented with faster communication and feedback to the players in the forums, an actionable plan drawn up with a publicly accessible and regularly updated roadmap for the game on the forums, much like the one for Planetside 2.

I find it encouraging however that in recent weeks there seems to be a increase in community interaction from some members of the Dev team (no need to name them, we all know who they are) and this seems to be spreading to other members of the team as they begin to see the benefits of player feedback earlier in the design phase.

The move that CCP have made that gives me real hope and a raises my opitislm is that CCP Flying Scotman is now in Shanghai and part of the Dust team. With one of CCP's most senior designers now in place we should see a real change in the pace of development of Dust. But the positve effects of him being over there is unlikely to bear real fruit until 1.5/.6, so I would ask the players to give him a little time to get settled and see what changes he has to make before giving him any static.

That said however CCP should still be free to come up with ideas and plans without feeling that they should check with the CPM and community for EVERY design choice. It gets dangourously close to design by committee which is never a good thing and I believe goes slightly beyond the remit of the CPM should that end up being the case. CCP should bring in comment from the CPM and by extension the community after preparatory work is done on a feature but BEFORE resources are committed to actioning them. That way a healthy balance is struck and CCP can save time and money if the CPM can tell them that it needs more more work or if there is a problem with it.

Now, there are a number of players still out there who think that statements like this are not what CPM0 should be doing and all they should only be concerned with coming up with a way to elect CPM1.

They're entitled to that opinion but I feel that they have missed the point of CPM0 entirely. There is little point in coming up with an election plan if by the time that elected body starts their term, they're being stonewalled by a undifined process of communication and protocol for dealling with CCP. CPM1 should be able to start work on day one of their term doing what they're going to be elected to do without having to discuss who and how they should be talking to to get something done.

As someone who has decided to stand to for CPM1 when the time comes (and yes, that time will come naysayers) I'm incredibly grateful for the work that CPM0 have done so far and glad CCP didn't pick me for the gig. I would've had to say no anyway. Getting DUST University up, running and stable was something that I felt would be a better contribution for me to make to the game in the long run. Particularly as the game has zero NPE at this point, something I will be pushing very hard for should I get elected.

As to the calls from some, for CCP to start again, well thats just impracticable at this point. 18 months ago it would've have been viable once details of the next gen consoles were known (one of those ripple effect decisions I spoke of earlier) but now it would be the death of Dust.

So broadly speaking I support this statement from the CPM and the recent posts since from members of the CPM since its posting regarding conversations that they've had with CCP is encouraging and seems to have lit a fire under Shanghai.



I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.
Penumbra or something
#78 Posted: 2013.08.12 15:01
Same balancing needs to wait, otherwise it'll become imbalanced again after every major update.
#79 Posted: 2013.08.12 15:43
Nova Knife wrote:


Oh man, you have no idea how much we wish this were true.

The mere existence of a test server would almost certainly have prevented so, so many issues.

Edit: Expanding on that - All of our 'foreknowledge' of upcoming builds comes from idle chat on skype or rough outlines of patchnotes, and the semi-regular meeting we have for them to say "So, these are the highlights of our plan for 1.X, questions?"



thanks for illuminating a bit on how you guys work.

Dust2Dust.
#80 Posted: 2013.08.12 15:49
Buster Friently wrote:
I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.

Get your priorities right Buster. The last thing we need is any interruption to the processes being created as they are now.

And no, it's not a given that an elected body with zero experience of these things would be able to work 'just as effectively' as CPM0 are at this stuff. It's not even what CPM1 should be doing and definitely not what many would be signing up for or being voted in to do if there were elections today.

Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot

Scout community is the nuts

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