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Statement from CPM0 - "State of affairs : Communication & Trust"

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WARRIORS 1NC
#21 Posted: 2013.08.12 00:37
No surprise with this tbh, CCP implemented 1GM in eve about 4yrs ago who was telling the community the short term roadmap and it was an instant hit. Iirc he posted every month and the community loved it.

Then the inevitable happened and he was not allowed to further comment. The community went nuts but that was the end of it.

G I A N T
#22 Posted: 2013.08.12 00:37
+9000

Thank you for trying to save our game.

[GI4NT] CEO / Retired<3XXXD> Dust Head

@CookieStein Skype: Cookie_Stein

No Free Pass
#23 Posted: 2013.08.12 00:46
The OP could use a tl;dr

just saying

Leader of No Free Pass, Winner of the lolurgentfury prime league tournament EU . First to rename a planet.

TRUE TEA BAGGERS
#24 Posted: 2013.08.12 00:52
To echo many voices already heard before me, thanks to you guys I want to see this game succeed and the CPMs play a key role in that

Hello? any one there?

Calmacht
#25 Posted: 2013.08.12 00:56
bump response quickly CCP!! i wan to know whats going on with DUST 514
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#26 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:00
First, a thank you to the members of the CPM.

You peeps are working hard in a difficult position, and whether our crazy expedition ends up smashed and forgotten on the rocks or pillaging the heart of Aquilonia(i.e. EA), your work is appreciated.

For a player on the outside like myself and many others, the decisions of CCP in the development of DUST have been hard to parse.

What I've intuited my way towards based on many puzzling actions is that there is a fairly-strongly-embedded culture somewhere in CCP, that is afflicted with an elitist us/them mindset, This is probably a misreading on my part, but not a total misreading.

It may not be malignant at all, but more a case of benign neglect.

The fact that the CPM has released a statement like this indicates to me that despite recent restructuring and personnel changes, an unhealthy culture abides. In Reyk or in Shanghai I do not know.

But CCP, you have to find the source of that culture and find a way to change it into something a whole lot more efficacious and a whole lot wiser than what we have now. It's a difficult situation and a big ask, but if DUST is to become the catalyst for bringing New Eden to life, it needs to be done. And swiftly, methinks.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

Professor Nova's Super Ethical Auction House
#27 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:08
Vrain Matari wrote:


The fact that the CPM has released a statement like this indicates to me that despite recent restructuring and personnel changes, an unhealthy culture abides. In Reyk or in Shanghai I do not know.

But CCP, you have to find the source of that culture and find a way to change it into something a whole lot more efficacious and a whole lot wiser than what we have now. It's a difficult situation and a big ask, but if DUST is to become the catalyst for bringing New Eden to life, it needs to be done. And swiftly, methinks.


There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.




Subsonic Synthesis
#28 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:31
Nova Knife wrote:
Vrain Matari wrote:


The fact that the CPM has released a statement like this indicates to me that despite recent restructuring and personnel changes, an unhealthy culture abides. In Reyk or in Shanghai I do not know.

But CCP, you have to find the source of that culture and find a way to change it into something a whole lot more efficacious and a whole lot wiser than what we have now. It's a difficult situation and a big ask, but if DUST is to become the catalyst for bringing New Eden to life, it needs to be done. And swiftly, methinks.


There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.





^ these are wise words.

I am nobody.

Den of Swords
#29 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:32  |  Edited by: Iron Wolf Saber
In my experience in the US Navy has taught me anything is that is rarely the individual at fault for something continuously done procedurally the wrong way because that guy was taught by the other guy ect ect on that's how its always been because the culture dictates it so. Back in the age of older aircraft where jury rigging would be commonplace that sort of behavior has no place in precision designed current generation of fighter craft where things MUST be done the right way or stupider things happen.

Someone upstairs realized that and started hammering it from top down and the last few years got to see and participate into the process myself of 'reculturing' workflow and the sorts. Everything was observed under a magnifying glass, everything measured, and everything integrated for improvement. In the short course of two years we safely managed to reduce our operational costs at our facility by 2 Billion USD while increasing quality and reducing rework all because we change the culture up.

As I said in short from the AMA, CCP needs to do some HTFU of its own and get with the program. I realize that not only most of CCP Shanghai may potentially not speak english that is nearly holding true for those in CCP Iceland as well where they recruit from various european nations. Yet it doesn't stop the communications over there. CCP Shanghai is probably comprised of various developers who for the longest time never had a player(s) look over their shoulders on what they're doing. Most of the industry doesn't do this either. It's something CCP will have to come to terms on their own, we, the CPM, will continue to remind them it needs to happen and reinforce the points as to why it needs to be done.

Former CPM 0, CPM 1

Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior

Rosen Association
#30 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:43
Nova Knife wrote:
No one can deny that CCP is repeating work on game systems they've previously designed, released, and found problems with – problems that in most cases were quickly identified and repeatedly brought up by the community throughout the beta period. There's also no denying that the need to rework any part of a product usually means that time and manpower was wasted initially. We're now seeing CCP fix many of these gameplay issues, but if they do not fix the core community engagement problems that allowed those issues to take root in the first place, we'll find ourselves back in the same unhealthy place time and time again.

This isn't to say there aren't a few shining examples of teams working to improve this situation. A few have stepped forward and taken full advantage of the feedback process, and have shown marked improvements in their area of the game. As a result, they become instantly beloved by the community. A few have worked with the CPM and taken feedback from our meetings to heart, coming back to us with massively improved results. However, we simply cannot afford to leave this up to individual efforts. Communication needs to be both standardized and endorsed by management as a "standard operating practice", and applied consistently across the entire development structure..

A proper, standardized communication platform should consist of the following minimum critical elements: Patch notes no later than a week in advance of a release, dev blogs for the major feature changes that require the most explanation, and stickied forum posts with follow-up participation from devs for upcoming feature changes that have yet to reach code freeze. The first two elements of this communication platform have begun to fall in place, but the third is sorely lacking, and it continues to create an unnecessary backlog for designers and unnecessary toxicity for the community teams to manage. Players consistently find stickied forum posts insulting if they're posted up after the time has passed when anything can be changed before a release, as if their opinions are being asked for only as a token gesture.

Balancing passes deserve special consideration here, because we've consistently heard that balance work is not tied to a code freeze, theoretically being something they could iterate much more rapidly on than other systems. Unfortunately, we've also seen resistance to using this powerful tool. Either way, there is enormous potential here being squandered. If CCP can indeed make more subtle balance adjustments on a week-to-week basis, until they hit a "sweet spot", then this should be done.

If for whatever reason this isn't viable (and they choose instead to include all balance work in a monthly 1.X release) than the same standard should be applied for other feature changes – proposed balancing work (including all affected stats) need to be posted and discussed prior to code freeze. This is the communication standard that CCP has set for itself elsewhere in the company, and the standard that the community expects out of Shanghai as well, especially where balance is concerned. CCP can draw upon their own experience with Eve Online to examine the incredible progress that can be achieved with proper communication and community involvement when making balance adjustments.

In the end, we're all in this together. CCP has at its disposal hundreds, if not thousands of players who are able, willing, and ready to do whatever it takes to help improve Dust 514, asking no more from CCP than a chance to participate. The deep levels of interaction between player and developer have been one of the keys to the success of Eve Online that has earned CCP the devout following they have gathered over the past decade. This success is something CCP needs strive to emulate with Dust 514 to foster that same strong relationship with their customers, encouraging them to keep playing and spending money for years to come.

In the meantime, there is no sense in sugarcoating either the fact that the community's patience is at an end, and the attitude problems that have created the current situation remain unchanged. We request, again, that someone in management step up and take public responsibility for ensuring consistent communication moving forward – for the health of the game, and the health of the community. Swift action is necessary in order to successfully convince the community that their participation is still necessary and relevant to Dust 514's future.

At the time of this writing, a very loose commitment has been given to better involve the CPM more closely in planning stages, but we want to impress upon CCP the severity of the larger communication problems and trust issues at hand. Without substance or detail, a simple pledge to communicate more often is frankly not good enough to dissipate our fears and concerns. As a council, we cannot afford to sit idle without hearing concrete plans to for improvement. We are told that there are meetings in the works to form such plans,and we look forward to hearing from CCP regarding this and working with them to create a solid foundation moving forward.

Thank you for your time and consideration,

The members of the Council of Planetary Management



A decent sentiment, but, honestly, CPM0 should have only one responsibility - preparing the infrastructure for CPM1.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

You guys shouldn't even have the CPM tag on the forums.

Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
#31 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:55
The CPM are our "elected" officials, they represent the voice of the community. They need to have just as much say in the development of this game as anyone on the dev team.
The dev teams needs to eat their own dogfood / live their own code. They don't but the CPM does, thats why they need a say.

Fixing FGs > all

Rosen Association
#32 Posted: 2013.08.12 01:59  |  Edited by: Buster Friently
Gallente Mercenary 08551380 wrote:
The CPM are our "elected" officials, they represent the voice of the community. They need to have just as much say in the development of this game as anyone on the dev team.
The dev teams needs to eat their own dogfood / live their own code. They don't but the CPM does, thats why they need a say.

They aren't elected. They were appointed by CCP.

Once they are elected, then I agree. That's why CPM0 should just be there to prep everything for a successful CPM1.
Forty-Nine Fedayeen
Minmatar Republic
#33 Posted: 2013.08.12 02:01
Buster Friently wrote:
You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.


The best infrastructure that can be laid for CPM 1 is a developer base for DUST514 that accepts the CPM as a stakeholder every bit as much as the EVE Online developers accept CSM 8. Look at the evolution of the process from CSM 1 to now: does DUST514 have half a decade to spare?

The infrastructure you appear to want is elections and billboards. What you need to learn from CSM is the part played by CSMs 4, 5, and 6 in which both the CSM and CCP found the best way to work together, communicate freely without blame-laying or hidden-agenda-ing, etc.

The communications and transparency framework is the best possible infrastructure that CPM 1 could ever hope to start with. CPM 0 will do a much better job of convincing CCP Shanghai that the processes of CCP+CSM are worth following if you hold off on the "democracy if it kills us" agitation.
Professor Nova's Super Ethical Auction House
#34 Posted: 2013.08.12 02:01
Buster Friently wrote:



A decent sentiment, but, honestly, CPM0 should have only one responsibility - preparing the infrastructure for CPM1.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

You guys shouldn't even have the CPM tag on the forums.



A fair enough point.

This is part of the reason we call ourselves CPM0, and not CPM1. But, ask yourself this ; Isn't the core part of the infrastructure, the process by which the CPM interacts with CCP? Establishing a voting process right now would be entirely meaningless, because CPM1 would just have to trudge through all same the roadblocks we're trying to clear for them. There has been progress, albeit slow in regards to setting up procedures that allow us to communicate, but many of these processes are not being used by CCP as well as they could be, which is yet another roadblock.

That being said... any player could say exactly what we have collectively drafted as a group and posted in the OP. Most of it is observations that any outside observer could make. It's simply a statement of how things are, since the information chain & feedback process is the integral function of the CPM institution, and people need to know where it stands.
Rosen Association
#35 Posted: 2013.08.12 02:03  |  Edited by: Buster Friently
Nova Knife wrote:
Buster Friently wrote:



A decent sentiment, but, honestly, CPM0 should have only one responsibility - preparing the infrastructure for CPM1.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

You guys shouldn't even have the CPM tag on the forums.



A fair enough point.

This is part of the reason we call ourselves CPM0, and not CPM1. But, ask yourself this ; Isn't the core part of the infrastructure, the process by which the CPM interacts with CCP? Establishing a voting process right now would be entirely meaningless, because CPM1 would just have to trudge through all same the roadblocks we're trying to clear for them. There has been progress, albeit slow in regards to setting up procedures that allow us to communicate, but many of these processes are not being used by CCP as well as they could be, which is yet another roadblock.

That being said... any player could say exactly what we have collectively drafted as a group and posted in the OP. Most of it is observations that any outside observer could make. It's simply a statement of how things are, since the information chain & feedback process is the integral function of the CPM institution, and people need to know where it stands.



This is why I started by saying that I agree with the sentiment.

Without a true window in to the process, I can't comment much on whether CPM0's statement is due to the (rightful) idea that there isn't a dialog, or the (IMHO misguided) idea that the wishes or design suggestions from CPM0 have any validity beyond that of "ordinary" players.
Negative-Feedback
#36 Posted: 2013.08.12 02:07
Buster Friently wrote:


A decent sentiment, but, honestly, CPM0 should have only one responsibility - preparing the infrastructure for CPM1.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

You guys shouldn't even have the CPM tag on the forums.



Establishing communications between CCP, the CPM, and the community are exactly the kind of infrastructure preparing needed to lead up to CPM1 as the first player-elected council for Dust.

The current CPM may have been appointed, but that doesn't change our role as servants to the community first and foremost.

Owner of Spero Escrow Services

Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#37 Posted: 2013.08.12 02:20
Nova Knife wrote:
Vrain Matari wrote:


The fact that the CPM has released a statement like this indicates to me that despite recent restructuring and personnel changes, an unhealthy culture abides. In Reyk or in Shanghai I do not know.

But CCP, you have to find the source of that culture and find a way to change it into something a whole lot more efficacious and a whole lot wiser than what we have now. It's a difficult situation and a big ask, but if DUST is to become the catalyst for bringing New Eden to life, it needs to be done. And swiftly, methinks.


There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.


A witch hunt would be the end of DUST - why introduce that kind of negativity into the conversation?

That 'process' you refer to didn't materialize out of thin air, it was chosen, implemented and apparently has some staying power. It's the set of assumptions and beliefs behind that process that needs to change, and change always comes from the top. There is no need for it to be draconian or negative.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

SyNergy Gaming
#38 Posted: 2013.08.12 03:30
Giev CCP Unifex on dust that dude rocks
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#39 Posted: 2013.08.12 03:47
Rhapsodyy Darkforce wrote:
Giev CCP Unifex on dust that dude rocks

Yup. Pretty much best chance of success, i figure.

But it is a very different situation from fixing EVE - he might not want the job.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

Onslaught Inc
#40 Posted: 2013.08.12 03:53
Hello again guys and gals. I just got back into town from my nephew's wedding, so if any of you have tried to reach me the last 48 hours I apologize. Many thanks to Nova for posting our statement, and to everyone else - feel free to poke us through the usual channels if you have anything you want to share or discuss directly, otherwise we'll of course be monitoring this thread for feedback as well.

I appreciate all the kind words of support from the community here as well, it looks like the time and effort we put into the statement and its preparation was worthwhile. I'm looking forward to seeing the constructive conversation this will hopefully provide between CCP and the player community as we continue to move forward.

o7
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