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POCO'S - CCP DO IT NOW !!!!!

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Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
#21 Posted: 2013.05.31 17:38
+1
I love this idea for the new environments it will bring, and the expansion of the EVE-Dust link. Brilliant.

▲▼Supreme emperor god-king【KAGEH۞SHI】// Lord of threads // Forum alt ▲▼

Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
#22 Posted: 2013.05.31 17:57
At least there will be no vehicles to run me over in the POCO or a single tank to stomp everyone, so signed
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
#23 Posted: 2013.05.31 18:33
PonyClause Rex wrote:
At least there will be no vehicles to run me over in the POCO or a single tank to stomp everyone, so signed



RDV Request Accepted.
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 Posted: 2013.05.31 18:53
Got a bit distracted with work related stuff so this took longer than expected and was way more rushed than i wanted. Sorry.

Hey! Thank you very much for not just posting this but posting it well. It has some thought put into it, is short, and tries to make good arguments.

I am going to start with responding directly to each point, so this may come off a bit harsh, but I am just an idiot and don't know how to be nice. >.<

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Player Owned Customs Office (POCO) is the answer to many current challenges in Dust .


Sweet!

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

To Dusties unfamiliar to what a POCO is , it is a space station above a planet , Eve players use this space station as a link to move resources (PI) from the planet into space and then to respective markets . Every planet can have one POCO anchored to it .The owner of this POCO sets a tax rate so everything you move through this space station from the planet you have to pay x amount of tax on the total value of shipment.

Ownership of this little feature can make or break the viability for everyone farming on the planet and is well worth fighting for. In high sec Concord own these stations so its a no go zone but as far as low – sec , nul – sec and wormholes go ..... its player owned.


Even explaining things that others may not understand, love it.

Firstly, when you start with saying that his will answer many of the current challenges in DUST, it is helpful to list what you think those are. Not everyone may agree but more importantly it helps get an idea of the goals of this feature.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

If Eve players had to start putting contracts out for defending or attacking these POKOS , suddenly there will be a HUGE platform for additional interaction namely:


Can't really argue with that.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

This will give the opportunity for the big block Dust alliances to have additional stream of revenue and action.


OK, but big block DUST alliances already kind of have planetary conquest.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

It will allow the medium and small Dust Corps to also get involved and make extra ISK.


This is kind of completley counter to your first point isn't it? When the large groups can participate what is to stop them from just rolling the rest?

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Due to the fact that there are so many planets being used for PI there will be more than enough action for everyone.


Will this actually lead to fights though?

Keep in mind I am no DB guy, but with a quick look I found the following:
50,968 planets in null security/WH space (couldn't find a quick and dirty way to filter out WH space)
5,612 planets in low secutiy space
10,392 planets in high security space

That is a LOT of planets and each one can have a POCO. Well, minus high sec, but I wouldn't really rule that out from ever happening.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

I really like the fact that you as an Eve player can have a whole Dust corp on your pay role ...and don’t have to be a super power to make use of the Dust Corporations.


Yes, this is awesome.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Its not complicated, the Dust corp attacking the POCO and winning the match takes over the station and hand ownership over to new owner for a fee.


... I have to stop you here... OK maybe not stop you, since you already posted everything and I can't really stop you, but this is... well yea wrong.

So I am assuming we are just talking game mechanics here, not implementation challenges. So lets just talk about that for a few minutes. What happens when the POCO is reinforced? Why would EVE players even care if a DUST corp takes it when all they have to do is take it back and the DUST corp can't do anything? HOW does a EVE corp contract DUST players to fight? Especially when we don't have ISK transfer in yet. How do reinforcement timers work? What happens if it is attacked during the battle? Or the EVE corps trade it while the attack is underway? How do existing mechanics like vehicle drops, warbarge strikes, and the like all work? This is just what I thought of in a few minutes, I am sure there are more.

All solvable things sure, but all things that need to be thought of.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

A nice change if we could have a map/structure resembling a space station and fighting in it.


Have you played a match of DUST and gotten both teams all around one objective or another close space? Open maps are kind of done for more than big pretty spaces.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Add additional game play where an Eve pilot have to collect DUST players in a ship from the MCC and deliver them to the POCO ( Its not a long trip ). So there is a chance that the whole squad and Eve pilot can get blown up by other Eve pilots or the defender.


Feature creep! If we don't have this in for planetary conquest, or null sec stuff, chances are we are not going to get it in for POCO conquest.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Not that many extra features to be implemented except for an additional map to really make this a reality.


This is my biggest... well facepalm moment:
- Viewing where POCOs are
- Viewing a list of your owned POCO
- Changing POCO settings
- In EVE POCOS set TAX based on standings. DUST has no concept of standings.
- A way to view and accept contracts from EVE players. I suppose also a way to issue them.
- A way in EVE to issue contracts to defend/attack POCOS.
- New maps
- New game modes (no MCC inside a POCO)
- New art assets for said map
- Figuring out all the design issues sort of listed above.
- A way in EVE to see fights for POCOs going on
- Probably want some way EVE players can help/influence the fights
- All the QA for all this stuff
- The documentation for community teams
- The automated tests
- more I am sure, I just haven't thought of it
- POCOs for EVE are not done with CREST, CREST is what DUST uses. This means all POCO features probably need to be moved to CREST. That is more development time, more testing, and more stuff.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Hope this gets noticed.
Reg
Cap


Noticed it did. As I said at the beginning I don't want to come off as an ass or anything. The bang for buck on this though, when looking at everything else we can do, is really low.

There are still lots of big wins to be had with iterating on facitonal warfare, planetary conquest, corporation management, arena battles, and a plethora of other things.

That being said, this is of course a cool idea. :D

CCP FoxFour // Game Designer

http://twitter.com/regnerba

L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
#25 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:03
So seeing as you have sunken this idea, any word on what true grit is working on now? Aside from the current monitoring of PC in molten Heath.

Lv 4 forum warrior

Bringer of Bacon

Knight of AMV's

Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
#26 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:08
Good post Soxfour.

Maybe this can be on the agenda in 2015 or 2016 lol.
Fatal Absolution
#27 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:12
SoxFour's post is great.
It's depressing that we can't have much content for ages, though...

You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

EUrobro

C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:24
gbghg wrote:
So seeing as you have sunken this idea, any word on what true grit is working on now? Aside from the current monitoring of PC in molten Heath.


Iterating on FW, corporations, communication, and the such while we monitor planetary conquest and look at what we want to do there.

CCP FoxFour // Game Designer

http://twitter.com/regnerba

C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:26
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
SoxFour's post is great.
It's depressing that we can't have much content for ages, though...


That's not really true, but at the same time not really what this team does. We take content that the other teams have made (maps, game modes, and such) and create the things like planetary conquest that let you access that content. So when reading things I say keep that in mind. The art and level design guys are always working on new content. :D

CCP FoxFour // Game Designer

http://twitter.com/regnerba

Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
#30 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:36  |  Edited by: DigiOps
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
SoxFour's post is great.
It's depressing that we can't have much content for ages, though...


That's not really true, but at the same time not really what this team does. We take content that the other teams have made (maps, game modes, and such) and create the things like planetary conquest that let you access that content. So when reading things I say keep that in mind. The art and level design guys are always working on new content. :D

The map design dev blog was pretty cool. Good read. With any luck, I'll be on to stuff like that after school's done.
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#31 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:40
Daedric Lothar wrote:
Fadiia wrote:
[
In the end i was able to produce a net income of 17mil per day per char. Or 510 mil a month. That was with the price structure of 2.5 years ago. I guess there has been some inflation going on...


Yea 500M a month is a plex and thats pretty awesome, but I can pull like 100M an hour (200M with salvage) just killing stuff in null belts and anoms. I mean I understand that passive gains are awesome beacuse you can have that going on the side and also do something else, but for this then you have to show up for Orbitals, risk your ship because you can be seen in the whole sec, then you have to pay the mercs to defend your Poco.

What I was saying is that people like PI because its really low risk and not expensive to get into. This is going to change that and make it a much less attactive proposition. However I am sure it can be balanced and with the coming Ice Mining nerf in EVE I am sure anything Fuel related will become a gold mine Isk wise.





I think they just mean for ownership of the POCO and the tax revenue it provides.
Sparks Inc
Zero Hour Alliance
#32 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:40
I never understood why we have these floaty canisters called POCOs in EVE when the lore / books were talking about space elevators long before.

Space elevator > space canister.
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
#33 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:41
What about making pocos invulnerable again? Then make pocos dust turf. This would integrate the two games even more. WHs would make this a logistical nightmare. Solution, rather than pick up the actual groups of mercs, pilots deliver clone packs. Then the dusties que like its a pc match. And then the winner gets to allow rights to corporations, alliances, and individuals based on standing similar to how null outposts work.
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
#34 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:47
CCP FoxFour wrote:
gbghg wrote:
So seeing as you have sunken this idea, any word on what true grit is working on now? Aside from the current monitoring of PC in molten Heath.


Iterating on FW, corporations, communication, and the such while we monitor planetary conquest and look at what we want to do there.

So you give me the subject but none of the juicy details? Grrrr, I really wanna know what your planning to do with those things, but I understand if you don't want to share. Still I have to ask, are we going to be seeing any of the stuff your working on in the next 6 months?

Lv 4 forum warrior

Bringer of Bacon

Knight of AMV's

#35 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:50
Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Player Owned Customs Office (POCO) is the answer to many current challenges in Dust .

To Dusties unfamiliar to what a POCO is , it is a space station above a planet , Eve players use this space station as a link to move resources (PI) from the planet into space and then to respective markets . Every planet can have one POCO anchored to it .The owner of this POCO sets a tax rate so everything you move through this space station from the planet you have to pay x amount of tax on the total value of shipment.

Ownership of this little feature can make or break the viability for everyone farming on the planet and is well worth fighting for. In high sec Concord own these stations so its a no go zone but as far as low – sec , nul – sec and wormholes go ..... its player owned.

If Eve players had to start putting contracts out for defending or attacking these POKOS , suddenly there will be a HUGE platform for additional interaction namely:
- This will give the opportunity for the big block Dust alliances to have additional stream of revenue and action.
- It will allow the medium and small Dust Corps to also get involved and make extra ISK.
- Due to the fact that there are so many planets being used for PI there will be more than enough action for everyone.
- I really like the fact that you as an Eve player can have a whole Dust corp on your pay role ...and don’t have to be a super power to make use of the Dust Corporations.
- Its not complicated, the Dust corp attacking the POCO and winning the match takes over the station and hand ownership over to new owner for a fee. –
- A nice change if we could have a map/structure resembling a space station and fighting in it.
- Add additional game play where an Eve pilot have to collect DUST players in a ship from the MCC and deliver them to the POCO ( Its not a long trip ). So there is a chance that the whole squad and Eve pilot can get blown up by other Eve pilots or the defender.

Not that many extra features to be implemented except for an additional map to really make this a reality.

Hope this gets noticed.
Reg
Cap


This is an absolutely FANTASTIC idea that I think EVERYONE but you overlooked. Kudos sir!
#36 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:51
Daedric Lothar wrote:
I'm not sure it would be worth it. EVE players only make like100-150 million a month from PI per character, the poco makes a percentage of that. So if the tax is like 10% adn 3 players are making like 150 mill a month, that poco is like 45M a month revenue . Given that it cost us 80M per district I'm not sure the funding would be there. Mostly PI in EVE is a way to make some ISK on the side when you are bored more then an active career.

My math may be off because I don't mess with Pocos in space. I weighed the option and found Carrier belt ratting to be much more profitable.


Wrong - I was making 150mil a week in a WH doing PI with only 2 characters - WH make the same amout of PI as null. If you only make 100-150 a month you are doing it wrong.
#37 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:55
Daedric Lothar wrote:
Fadiia wrote:
[
In the end i was able to produce a net income of 17mil per day per char. Or 510 mil a month. That was with the price structure of 2.5 years ago. I guess there has been some inflation going on...


Yea 500M a month is a plex and thats pretty awesome, but I can pull like 100M an hour (200M with salvage) just killing stuff in null belts and anoms. I mean I understand that passive gains are awesome beacuse you can have that going on the side and also do something else, but for this then you have to show up for Orbitals, risk your ship because you can be seen in the whole sec, then you have to pay the mercs to defend your Poco.

What I was saying is that people like PI because its really low risk and not expensive to get into. This is going to change that and make it a much less attactive proposition. However I am sure it can be balanced and with the coming Ice Mining nerf in EVE I am sure anything Fuel related will become a gold mine Isk wise.





That may be why players like it, but CCP hates PI as it is now as there is 0 risk to players. They are looking for a ways to make people actually undock in terms of PI, and this fits the bill.

Again, +1 OP
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
#38 Posted: 2013.05.31 19:56
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

This will give the opportunity for the big block Dust alliances to have additional stream of revenue and action.


OK, but big block DUST alliances already kind of have planetary conquest.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

It will allow the medium and small Dust Corps to also get involved and make extra ISK.


This is kind of completley counter to your first point isn't it? When the large groups can participate what is to stop them from just rolling the rest?

...

... I have to stop you here... OK maybe not stop you, since you already posted everything and I can't really stop you, but this is... well yea wrong.

So I am assuming we are just talking game mechanics here, not implementation challenges. So lets just talk about that for a few minutes. What happens when the POCO is reinforced? Why would EVE players even care if a DUST corp takes it when all they have to do is take it back and the DUST corp can't do anything? HOW does a EVE corp contract DUST players to fight? Especially when we don't have ISK transfer in yet. How do reinforcement timers work? What happens if it is attacked during the battle? Or the EVE corps trade it while the attack is underway? How do existing mechanics like vehicle drops, warbarge strikes, and the like all work? This is just what I thought of in a few minutes, I am sure there are more.

All solvable things sure, but all things that need to be thought of.


This is my biggest... well facepalm moment:
- Viewing where POCOs are
- Viewing a list of your owned POCO
- Changing POCO settings
- In EVE POCOS set TAX based on standings. DUST has no concept of standings.
- A way to view and accept contracts from EVE players. I suppose also a way to issue them.
- A way in EVE to issue contracts to defend/attack POCOS.
- New maps
- New game modes (no MCC inside a POCO)
- New art assets for said map
- Figuring out all the design issues sort of listed above.
- A way in EVE to see fights for POCOs going on
- Probably want some way EVE players can help/influence the fights
- All the QA for all this stuff
- The documentation for community teams
- The automated tests
- more I am sure, I just haven't thought of it
- POCOs for EVE are not done with CREST, CREST is what DUST uses. This means all POCO features probably need to be moved to CREST. That is more development time, more testing, and more stuff.

Captain Africa Clone1 wrote:

Hope this gets noticed.
Reg
Cap


Noticed it did. As I said at the beginning I don't want to come off as an ass or anything. The bang for buck on this though, when looking at everything else we can do, is really low.

There are still lots of big wins to be had with iterating on facitonal warfare, planetary conquest, corporation management, arena battles, and a plethora of other things.

That being said, this is of course a cool idea. :D


Wow, so I am not the original poster so I can't speak for his mind.

What I assumed the original post was about, was 1 battle, on a station NOT owned by Dust Corps necessarily. (Unlike in PC where players are trying to gain property)

So here's the process I see working:

Owner is notified of incoming attack by other eve player or corp (Dust/Eve). There would need to be an imposed timer to dictate how frequently a POCO can be attacked (due to hull stability -insert fluff here-)

Owner hires Mercenaries to fight the battle (Individually - This could be accomplished by individual game invites through in-game mail). Only 16 mercenaries need to be provided, hence small corp participation is possible since they don't have to hold a district against sustained attack, just play one battle.

Winner's employer becomes owner of POCO. This could be a Dust Corp, it could be an Eve Corp.

Payment could be in the form of the hiring party purchasing a Contract of X value, so there is not player to player transfer. That Conract value is assigned to the battle, and contributes to the battles overall value. The most important part though would be in the employer having control over who they hire - via game invites through in-game mail.

Think of it, mercenaries who hire themselves out on contract... to other players, to fight their battles.

I don't doubt that there is programming to go into it, a lot of work in fact, but it would go a long way to move this game away from the arena it is to actually feeling like a mercenary.
#39 Posted: 2013.05.31 20:00
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Standby, post incoming. This is taking some time to write. Looking numbers up in DB even. O_O

Hope you are happy.


Side note on this thread: everyone please "like" CCP "Fox"Four's post so that his real name, CCP SoxFour, will become what we all see. He only needs 10 million "likes" for this to happen.

End transmission.
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 Posted: 2013.05.31 20:26
It doesn't make sense to me that mercs on the ground are attacking the POCO in space. However, if you consider the space elevator is attached to that POCO, that means there is an installation at both ends of the elevator. The POCO in space remains conquerable by Eve pilots and the installation on the ground is conquerable by Dust mercs. Both ends could have different tax settings and owners. CCP could seed Interbus installations on all the planets initially and as merc ownership spreads throughout the galaxy these would be destroyed and replaced with player owned destructible installations.
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