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Aiming and control system in general

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C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 Posted: 2013.05.10 10:29  |  Edited by: CCP Frame
Posting the following info on upcoming changes to aiming and control system on behalf of CCP Wolfman since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.

Hi

As I’m sure you’re aware there have been some issues with the controls. We’ve been looking in to them and have identified some problems and starting with the mouse we are making some updates.

In this hotfix we have made changes to the input settings on the mouse which should improve the smoothness and fine aiming. The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical). One thing to note is that the DPI settings on your mouse can make a significant difference to how this feels so please keep that in mind.

Your feedback on how this compares to the previous values will be very important so please include your settings with any feedback you give if possible.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#2 Posted: 2013.05.10 10:59
CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:
Posting the following info on upcoming changes to aiming and control system on behalf of CCP Wolfman since he's knee deep in making these changes. He will also be answer questions and discussing this topic in this thread as well.

Hi

As I’m sure you’re aware there have been some issues with the controls. We’ve been looking in to them and have identified some problems and starting with the mouse we are making some updates.

In this hotfix we have made changes to the input settings on the mouse which should improve the smoothness and fine aiming. The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical). One thing to note is that the DPI settings on your mouse can make a significant difference to how this feels so please keep that in mind.

Your feedback on how this compares to the previous values will be very important so please include your settings with any feedback you give if possible.

Cheers

CCP Wolfman



what about the sony controllers?
because to be honest and i mean no disrespect the new movement system and iron sights completly blow. in chromosome they were perfect and im sure many will agree but what are the odds of getting that back to the way it was?

Flushing The Dust Down The Toilet.

Forsaken Immortals
#3 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:19
What about the fact that I aim my MD at someone fire and the smoke tracer hits them dead on but I infact miss because the explosion lands about 5m further away than where the tracer does?

Lead Diplomat for Forsaken Immortals.

Doomheim
#4 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:30  |  Edited by: 5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak5q
1. Turning limit. WHY? this is an FPS, not an RPG, I understand you guys have put in the whole turning limit to mimic the orbit/tracking mechnism in EVE so that heavies will "turn slower"... but you have stepped out of your line. The moment you touch basic things like aiming speed, you have stepped on the toes of the FPS players and into the boundary of "too much". This is an FPS first, don't turn it into an "RPG".

Suggestion: (strongly suggested)
abandon the whole concept of "turning speed limits".

Alternate suggestion: (something you could do if you have the time)
have two "cursors", one is without speed limit and will move the camera without delay, but there will be a separate crosshair that controls the gun aim (this will also affect the gun model) will slowly "catch up" within its speed limit to where you are looking at (the first cursor). This way you get to preserve your game design concepts (slow turning for heavies/turrets) but won't make the game feel laggy.
TLDR: control->camera without speed limit, but the gun aim will follow with their own limits. (so if you turn very quickly 180 degree, your camera will turn very quickly without any speed limit, but you will see your gun turning slowly to catch up. If you fire within this catch up period, you will effectively see the gun spraying bullets along a trail as it tries to go to the centre of the camera.




2. Mouse control simulating joystick - just don't.
Mouse users need raw input. Period.
This should be the benchmark you guys should aim to achieve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckv95eHdzTY
My point is that you need the LEAST amount of filters/smoothing/whatever be applied to your input.
We want RAW input to camera control, nothing more. This should be a top priority in your game design because this is what allows the FPS skill game to be present in your space MMORPGFPS. You don't mess with the basic FPS mechanics.
The control input to output should be perfectly linear (no acceleration, no smoothing) because this is where the skill game is at. <---this also applies to controllers. take away your smoothing and acceleration bullshet.



3. Framerate / performance issue. This influences the aiming. Fix this ASAP. First you need a high framerate. Secondly you need a consistent framerate.



4. Hitboxes detection. Nothing I can add to, just fix it. How can it be messed up in the first place?
Doomheim
#5 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:35
Also I suggest you publicize the formula you are using to calculate smoothing or turning limits.

Also I need to ask, how can this be messed up in the first place. This aiming thing sounds like it should be the very first exercise anyone learning to code an FPS would do. How can this be messed up?
#6 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:43
So does this mean that if I want to start enjoying the game, that I have to use a mouse until the Sony Controllers get their fix? Do you have a ETA on the Sony Controller fix? that is the controller most players use anyways.

I won the game.

Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
#7 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:44
"In this hotix" ? Meaning the one that just rolled out or the one coming next DT ?
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
#8 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:47
General John Ripper wrote:
So does this mean that if I want to start enjoying the game, that I have to use a mouse until the Sony Controllers get their fix? Do you have a ETA on the Sony Controller fix? that is the controller most players use anyways.



Im guessing the DS3 is experiencing problems because of the restrictions they are putting on KB/M values this was the case in Unreal tournament 3...
Doomheim
#9 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:48
edit- **** meant to edit
Random Gunz
#10 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:51
My problem with the new mechanics is the fact that it is very difficult to stay on target. Even when I adjust the sensitivity it just does not work for me. I play with the ps3 controller and I really liked the feel from the old build. hit detection is off also and when both of the problems are combined it really makes for a bad experience and kinda turns me away from the game.


Why not just reset the controls back to the old build for now and then if you feel that changes need to be made start from there instead of working on the controls from the uprising settings. Maybe I am wrong but I think people will like that better than what we have now.
#11 Posted: 2013.05.10 11:58
bolsh lee wrote:
General John Ripper wrote:
So does this mean that if I want to start enjoying the game, that I have to use a mouse until the Sony Controllers get their fix? Do you have a ETA on the Sony Controller fix? that is the controller most players use anyways.



Im guessing the DS3 is experiencing problems because of the restrictions they are putting on KB/M values this was the case in Unreal tournament 3...


Maybe your right. The servers have just gone live a moment ago so I plan to try out both DS3 and Mouse and see what kind of differences I feel.

I won the game.

Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
#12 Posted: 2013.05.10 12:08  |  Edited by: DJINN serious issues
Come on guys. Try to play other FPS games on computer or PS3 over the weekend.

Wolfman I'll send you a pack of beer if I'm wrong on this. Your accelleration on the Mouse and DS3 is backwards. It's that simple.

Snippet from my other post:

Take a mouse. Try to make fine movements with sensitivity at 100. Nearly impossible. Now slowly move your mouse from one side of the pad from the other. You'll do a number of 360's. Now try again but much faster this time. You will notice the number of 360's drop. No wonder no one can aim or GTFO. *edit* This is the source of the perceived "input lag" it's not lag at all, just backwards accelleration. *edit*

Take DS3. Try to make fine turns from say 0-60% range on the analog stick. You notice the turn speed is pretty constant. You have to move your finger only MMs to make fine movement. That is hard to do. Now snap from 0-100%. You can visually see you turn slow for about a second or so before the accelleration kicks in. In reality you want that second or so to ramp up in between 0-60% so you can make that fine aim. Then you want the 60-100% range snap to speed instantly. Now you can GTFO.


https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74613&p=11

*EDIT* forgot to add that the hotfix didn't fix the issue. Not even sure it masked it. I give up until the next input hotfix.

*EDIT*

Quote:

2. Mouse control simulating joystick - just don't.
Mouse users need raw input. Period.
This should be the benchmark you guys should aim to achieve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckv95eHdzTY


Although I hope you were joking when you said this is what they should aim to achieve... It does bring up some good visuals for why what you guys consider "raw" input for the mouse is pretty much what you are getting now, and why it is bad.

Watch that guy play. You can see to have a manageable sensitivity for aiming it has to be slow. You can see how he has to pick up his mouse to make larger turns. That is why you need accelleration. That is why we are suffering right now. You need 100 sensitivity to do a 360. But need 80 to aim at some one in your 60 degree FOV. If the acceleration wasn't backwards we'd be able to play with 80 sensitivity and then snap the mouse which increase acceleration and turn speed so we can turn.
#13 Posted: 2013.05.10 12:08  |  Edited by: Deranged Disaster
The mouse should have raw input. It is pointless to even try and balance the KBM with the DS3, you will only ruin it. Also, deadzones should just go to eliminate the input lag. Input lag is a huge deal to FPS games because it can completely throw off your aim. And when I say completely I mean completely. I have also noticed that the move controller sensitivity effects the KBM sensitivity. Some sensitivity values on the KBM are broken but right now the only one I can remember is 20, it made me feel like I had turned up the sensitivity at 200.

The last of our breed, we are bastards indeed. Seraphim Initiative reigns.

Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
#14 Posted: 2013.05.10 12:11
Deranged Disaster wrote:
The mouse should have raw input. It is pointless to even try and balance the KBM with the DS3, you will only ruin it. Also, deadzones should just go to eliminate the input lag. Input lag is a huge deal to FPS games because it can completely throw off your aim. And when I say completely I mean completely. I have also noticed that the move controller sensitivity effects the KBM sensitivity. Some sensitivity values on the KBM are broken but right now the only one I can remember is 20, it made me feel like I had turned up the sensitivity at 200.



It has nothing to do with raw input. Read my post. Dead zone has nothing to do with the messed up DS3 or Mouse inputs.
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
#15 Posted: 2013.05.10 12:24  |  Edited by: bolsh lee
DJINN serious issues wrote:
Come on guys. Try to play other FPS games on computer or PS3 over the weekend.

Wolfman I'll send you a pack of beer if I'm wrong on this. Your accelleration on the Mouse and DS3 is backwards. It's that simple.

Snippet from my other post:

Take a mouse. Try to make fine movements with sensitivity at 100. Nearly impossible. Now slowly move your mouse from one side of the pad from the other. You'll do a number of 360's. Now try again but much faster this time. You will notice the number of 360's drop. No wonder no one can aim or GTFO. *edit* This is the source of the perceived "input lag" it's not lag at all, just backwards accelleration. *edit*

Take DS3. Try to make fine turns from say 0-60% range on the analog stick. You notice the turn speed is pretty constant. You have to move your finger only MMs to make fine movement. That is hard to do. Now snap from 0-100%. You can visually see you turn slow for about a second or so before the accelleration kicks in. In reality you want that second or so to ramp up in between 0-60% so you can make that fine aim. Then you want the 60-100% range snap to speed instantly. Now you can GTFO.


https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=74613&p=11

*EDIT* forgot to add that the hotfix didn't fix the issue. Not even sure it masked it. I give up until the next input hotfix.


Just played a skirmish and im not sure if "this hotfix" even rolled out on the last DT, it still feels wonky as hell in Close Quarters combat still... Could we at least get a conformation if this went through or is it coming on the next DT ?
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
#16 Posted: 2013.05.10 13:03
I know it doesn't have to do with the mouse, but it does have to do with something similar. Turning acceleration for regular controllers needs an option to be turned off. This is in fact what is causing so many headaches for a majority of players. Some may like turning acceleration, but others want consistency in their movement at all times.

Stuff....?

Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
#17 Posted: 2013.05.10 13:07  |  Edited by: Rei Shepard
Quote:
The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical).


Ive got an idea, maybe like make them identical, then they are fixed ?

Just tried it, adjusting from 20 ingame sense to 30 is like x200

Ive reset my mouse back to its chromosone values and i cannot track a moving target body, before Uprising i could track the head of a moving target.

Ive tried 1k DPI, 1.5, 2 and from 2.5k upward things get really awkward and i still had to adjust seperate DPI values for each axis or i would be aiming in a oval instead of a circle.

I dont get it, what was wrong with chromosone ?

Edit: seriously why is Sense 20 more sensetive then 40,50,60,70,80,90,100?????????

Winner of the EU Squad Cup, Power Ranger for Life!

"My YT Channel"

Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
#18 Posted: 2013.05.10 13:15
Rei Shepard wrote:
Quote:
The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical).


Ive got an idea, maybe like make them identical, then they are fixed ?

Just tried it, adjusting from 20 ingame sense to 30 is like x200

Ive reset my mouse back to its chromosone values and i cannot track a moving target body, before Uprising i could track the head of a moving target.

Ive tried 1k DPI, 1.5, 2 and from 2.5k upward things get really awkward and i still had to adjust seperate DPI values for each axis or i would be aiming in a oval instead of a circle.

I dont get it, what was wrong with chromosone ?

Edit: seriously why is Sense 20 more sensetive then 40,50,60,70,80,90,100?????????



Exactly this is pretty ridiculous, same ole ****, Ive reduced my sensitivity to 30 from 40 to try to control the inconsistent tracking at close range and im all over the place.....
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
#19 Posted: 2013.05.10 13:43
I am little confused, has the hotfix happened already?
UnReaL.
#20 Posted: 2013.05.10 13:47
bolsh lee wrote:
"In this hotix" ? Meaning the one that just rolled out or the one coming next DT ?


Fresh out the oven
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