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Visual spotting mechanic

Author
Immortal Guides
#1 Posted: 2017.06.08 14:21  |  Edited by: Fox Gaden
Regardless of how the stealth vs sensors mechanic is setup in Nova, I think there should also be a line of sight spotting mechanic.

In short, if someone on your team passes their cross hairs over an enemy player, that player should show on the Tac-Net until it breaks line of sight with the person who spotted them, regardless of relative sensor strength (unless cloaked). Or if the “breaks line of sight” is too complicated to code, then have them show up for 3 seconds after they are no longer in the cross hairs.

This provides another contribution to the battle for Snipers and Scouts. It means that Scouts can really scout. An infiltrator can do more than hack, they can also let their team know where the enemy are located.

I think spotting should require that the cross hairs pass over the person so that the mechanic is dependent on a player actually paying attention, rather than just happening to look in the right direction. From an RP perspective, the visual threat analysis tagging sensors are part of the gun sights. Once the target is tagged your suit sensors track it until you lose visual contact.


Edit: It should be necessary to hold the target in your cross hairs for 0.5 seconds before they get tagged on the TAC-NET, to ensure that only enemy the player actually sees and concentrates on get tagged. Just passing the cross hairs over someone as you swing your rifle should not be enough to tag them.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

OSG Planetary Operations
#2 Posted: 2017.06.08 14:33  |  Edited by: Pokey Dravon
Complete agree. Your suit is capable of tracking the location of a visible target regardless of sensor stregnth or dampening. If I can tell where something is with the naked eye, I certainly hope a futuristic exosuit can visually track something location too.
Going for the gold
#3 Posted: 2017.06.08 14:38
R.I.P. people with weak pc's and their reduced render distance.

#NekosForLife ⎝◥▶‿‿◀◤⎠

When you think about it, nekos are like upgraded humans

Alma is a psycho I swear, send help

Made in Poland...
#4 Posted: 2017.06.08 15:18
I don't know about this.
Seeing someone =/= pin-pointing his exact geographical location.

There is no real need for this. You have passive and active scans for such things.

Quote:
I certainly hope a futuristic exosuit...

I would hope my bullets had some lethal toxin in them, or a tracing device. Well, they don't.

Quote:
visually track something location too [...] regardless of sensor stregnth or dampening

You are not going to measure distance with a laser if the laser beam doesn't reflect back.
You are not going to target something with echolocation if the object absorbs the sound.
Similarly you are not going to track someone's exosuit simply by looking at it.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

#5 Posted: 2017.06.08 15:34
*EDIT*
after rereading OP, I may have misread. i address that later on now, but still feel the first para or two are relevant for context to help clarify the roles and separation of those roles.

....

Idunno.
There's a weakness either way. I mean, I could just ballerina twirl in a zone hoping my crosshairs randomly pass over someone who's hiding behind something, sitting still, while only partially exposed. I might not have seen him, but my crosshairs sure will! Huh. Reminds me of old DUST scanner days :)

Just making a point here.

if I am fired upon though, I would be ok with a brief "ping" type locator pop up on my display. I can buy that my suit's tech could triangulate the source location of incoming fire. Just a 3-second dot illumination on the mini map. MAYBE if I maintain visual contact, then that dot stays illuminated, but that starts to slide into the issue above. Shared intel might be based on some skill level. Something like each skill level (or however it ends up working in NOVA) would increase the data share radius for your squad---just within squad. This could be a subtle encouragement to keep players in formation and close. Also, if other non-squad players are nearby, they will not get your shared data stream, but they should be able to use their senses of sight and sound to figure out that 5 people are shooting at some random crate stack, probably for good reason. Maybe they should then join in?

I would not want that intel automatically beaming to a sniping sitting on the other side of the map though as I think that would be too easy for the sniper and would lead to a very lazy method of situational awareness on their part. BUT... if I am taking fire, and a red dot pings on my mini map. I can then visually scan the area, hopefully determine that the shooter is behind a crate, and describe the scenario to my snipe via comms, "Shooter at my SIX, behind cover!" Ideally, the sniper (and all squad members) will always have directional chevrons of each squad member on the mini map. Sniper hears the callout, is already aware of you and your squad's location AND facing direction, does a quick mental click on what MY "six" is and now he's in action. If that sniper is any good and has been tracking my squad, then he should be able to find the crate as I describe and fire. Assuming they have line of site. This should be exciting for the sniper to both follow squad locations and be aware of their own surroundings. But I guess it all depends on how squads and individuals wish to use sniper roles, if they exist as we assume.

Or her. I don't mean to be sexist.

Now if you're talking only for sniper roles, then that may change things. Still, I think the above is necessary to draw a distinction between role mechanics. I like the idea of a sniper and/or a scout having a unique ability that general suits might not have however that distinction is played out. A mod unique to that suit type? Iderno. But I would not like it if any joe running around randomly could just randomly ping a hidden red because of ...cross hairs.

Maybe that could be a one-way data stream then? If a sniper (zoomed) spots a red, then the squad is alerted. A sniper would already be actively looking for reds, if in a zoomed scope, so I don't see any issue in that specific context for just a cross hair triggering an alert of some kind, and that info then being relayed to the squad. But not the other way around for reasons mentioned.

Not sure how a scout would play out. I guess it really depends on how CCP defines scout.

kitten bacon taco (nom)

OSG Planetary Operations
#6 Posted: 2017.06.08 15:39
Mejt0 wrote:

You are not going to measure distance with a laser if the laser beam doesn't reflect back.
You are not going to target something with echolocation if the object absorbs the sound.
Similarly you are not going to track someone's exosuit simply by looking at it.


Are you telling me a dropsuit can't track the distance to a given object? Cause pointing my gun at something certainly did in DUST.

So if I know my location, I know the vector of where I'm looking, and I know the distance. I can absolutely tell you where something is.
Nos Nothi
#7 Posted: 2017.06.08 15:40
Except there are no Scouts in Nova.

We are called Infiltrators now so we don't have to put up with ridiculous role expectations based on some people's perception of what it means to "Scout."

As to the idea, I am not opposed to it being used for everyone provided it is not a major problem. We saw in Dust how tacnet and EWAR could sometimes be too powerful (stupid shared scans I loathed). Some people, rightly or wrongly, even considered them wall hacks.

As long as it can be done responsibily I am for it.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Made in Poland...
#8 Posted: 2017.06.08 16:10
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:

You are not going to measure distance with a laser if the laser beam doesn't reflect back.
You are not going to target something with echolocation if the object absorbs the sound.
Similarly you are not going to track someone's exosuit simply by looking at it.


Are you telling me a dropsuit can't track the distance to a given object? Cause pointing my gun at something certainly did in DUST.

So if I know my location, I know the vector of where I'm looking, and I know the distance. I can absolutely tell you where something is.


In Dust, you looking at someone didn't place them on tacnet.
If you see someone and consider it a valid information you speak out loud about it.
You swirling around revealing enemy location doesn't make much sense.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

#9 Posted: 2017.06.08 17:12
@Fox:
Are you speaking specifically to sniper roles? Or is this for general purpose, every-suit, tech?
I think we all may be talking from two different points of view here.

kitten bacon taco (nom)

Dead Man's Game
#10 Posted: 2017.06.08 17:18
Mejt0 wrote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:

You are not going to measure distance with a laser if the laser beam doesn't reflect back.
You are not going to target something with echolocation if the object absorbs the sound.
Similarly you are not going to track someone's exosuit simply by looking at it.


Are you telling me a dropsuit can't track the distance to a given object? Cause pointing my gun at something certainly did in DUST.

So if I know my location, I know the vector of where I'm looking, and I know the distance. I can absolutely tell you where something is.


In Dust, you looking at someone didn't place them on tacnet.
If you see someone and consider it a valid information you speak out loud about it.
You swirling around revealing enemy location doesn't make much sense.

No, but "in Dust" really isn't a good argument... I mean, "In Dust" tanks could occasionally fly.

I think if you limit the range that this triggers at, it could be less easy to abuse it... Since if you run into an area of 5 enemies and start spinning around like a loony... You're gonna get shot, so just how useful that maneuver was is debatable.

Also, not everyone uses a mic, so sharing info with the person sat next to you trying to read a book isn't always that useful.
Made in Poland...
#11 Posted: 2017.06.08 18:17
Derpty Derp wrote:

No, but "in Dust" really isn't a good argument... I mean, "In Dust" tanks could occasionally fly.

I think if you limit the range that this triggers at, it could be less easy to abuse it... Since if you run into an area of 5 enemies and start spinning around like a loony... You're gonna get shot, so just how useful that maneuver was is debatable.

Also, not everyone uses a mic, so sharing info with the person sat next to you trying to read a book isn't always that useful.


If you didn't follow, I used "in dust" argument because Dust was brought into question. So that's that Blink

Squeezing this in between abusable > - > non abusable will provide more work than benefit.
Maybe, maybe if they want to give some extra meaning behind snipers (which I doubt) they can give them the ability to tag people.

Lone wolves don't need to share info. Those who play in squads are likely going to have a mic.
We should consider the majority of cases, not the minority.
After all, sharing such info is optional. You can do it for benefit to your team or keep it for yourself.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

#12 Posted: 2017.06.08 18:39
In Planetside 2, if you tagged something you were looking at with "Q" they would remain on the tac-net until LOS was broken by (I believe) any/all players looking at them; if the spotted target then hid/cloaked, they disappeared until "spotted" again.

Prepare your angus

Mantodea MC
#13 Posted: 2017.06.08 18:56
DiablosMajora wrote:
In Planetside 2, if you tagged something you were looking at with "Q" they would remain on the tac-net until LOS was broken by (I believe) any/all players looking at them; if the spotted target then hid/cloaked, they disappeared until "spotted" again.

PS2 simply has a spot button that you can press when an enemy is center-screen. Your character does a voice line of what you spotted (heard by all nearby), and the enemy's position + orientation is tracked on the minimap and has a chevron over them for 10 seconds. Cloaking will break a spot.

Not a bad system.

In terms of the rest of the stealth gameplay... PS2's recon is based on motion detection. So crouch-walking or standing still keeps you off the radar if you're in range of recon equipment.

Personally I preferred Dust's scan profile stuff. More loadout considerations to make.

"Stab you to death, stab you to life!"

-Truck Fist while knifing a red and reviving me

#14 Posted: 2017.06.08 19:14  |  Edited by: Moorian Flav
Scan profile was good in DUST. Something that I felt was always missing was a deployable similar to a nanohive where if you were within range, your scan profile was reduced making you less likely to be picked up by scans. That way, even Sentinels could possibly be hidden from some scans within a tight knit squad.
Furthermore, when it comes to deployables, I never understood why they never stuck to surfaces or at least had variants that would stick to surfaces. Having hives and links always on the ground made them easy to pop. If deployables stuck to surfaces, they could be used more tactically. As Nova is said to be in space on the outside of ships, it would seem pretty necessary for all deployables in Nova to stick.

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I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".

Immortal Guides
#15 Posted: 2017.06.08 19:18
Mejt0 wrote:

Quote:
visually track something location too [...] regardless of sensor stregnth or dampening

You are not going to measure distance with a laser if the laser beam doesn't reflect back.
You are not going to target something with echolocation if the object absorbs the sound.
Similarly you are not going to track someone's exosuit simply by looking at it.

If a measuring laser does not reflect back then that would mean your target is cloaked. No visual tracking of cloaked targets. That was alluded to in my post.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Dead Man's Game
#16 Posted: 2017.06.08 19:21
Mejt0 wrote:

If you didn't follow, I used "in dust" argument because Dust was brought into question. So that's that Blink

I did, it was aimed at both of you ^ ^.

Mejt0 wrote:

Squeezing this in between abusable > - > non abusable will provide more work than benefit.

I don't see it being that difficult, most fps games have the cross-hair change colour when pointing at something (avoids temptation to use "in dust" argument, lol.) So a simple if statement checking range and cloaked will do the trick... I wouldn't personally bother varying it based on suits or modules, because if you see it you know it's there no matter how much power it's using or sound it's making, also gives scouts a reason to sneak up behind people.

Mejt0 wrote:

Lone wolves don't need to share info. Those who play in squads are likely going to have a mic.
We should consider the majority of cases, not the minority.
After all, sharing such info is optional. You can do it for benefit to your team or keep it for yourself.

I'm not likely to disregard myself, that would be silly.

With Rattati's aim to get everyone fighting for a win rather than for ourselves it seems a little pointless to give the decision of sharing info.

Also pub matches rarely had an active team chat... So sharing info with the team isn't always possible with a mic.
Immortal Guides
#17 Posted: 2017.06.08 19:21  |  Edited by: Fox Gaden
byte modal wrote:

Idunno.
There's a weakness either way. I mean, I could just ballerina twirl in a zone hoping my crosshairs randomly pass over someone who's hiding behind something, sitting still, while only partially exposed. I might not have seen him, but my crosshairs sure will! Huh. Reminds me of old DUST scanner days :)


I am not apposed to having to the hold the target in the cross hairs for half a second to get the lock. I actually think that is a good idea, to insure intent rather than than just randomly passing your cross hairs over someone in the distance you did not notice.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

#18 Posted: 2017.06.08 19:42
Fox Gaden wrote:
byte modal wrote:

Idunno.
There's a weakness either way. I mean, I could just ballerina twirl in a zone hoping my crosshairs randomly pass over someone who's hiding behind something, sitting still, while only partially exposed. I might not have seen him, but my crosshairs sure will! Huh. Reminds me of old DUST scanner days :)


I am not apposed to having to the hold the target in the cross hairs for half a second to get the lock. I actually think that is a good idea, to insure intent rather than than just randomly passing your cross hairs over someone in the distance you did not notice.



So are you speaking to general suit use, or sniper-specific? Or whatever role/class/suit/thingy that CCP ends up creating?

kitten bacon taco (nom)

Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#19 Posted: 2017.06.08 19:46
I like it.

Do you suggest a single track, or multiple tracks?

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

ROGUE RELICS
#20 Posted: 2017.06.08 21:27  |  Edited by: DeathwindRising
byte modal wrote:
Fox Gaden wrote:
byte modal wrote:

Idunno.
There's a weakness either way. I mean, I could just ballerina twirl in a zone hoping my crosshairs randomly pass over someone who's hiding behind something, sitting still, while only partially exposed. I might not have seen him, but my crosshairs sure will! Huh. Reminds me of old DUST scanner days :)


I am not apposed to having to the hold the target in the cross hairs for half a second to get the lock. I actually think that is a good idea, to insure intent rather than than just randomly passing your cross hairs over someone in the distance you did not notice.



So are you speaking to general suit use, or sniper-specific? Or whatever role/class/suit/thingy that CCP ends up creating?


I would've preferred this to be sniper specific. snipers really had nothing useful to offer unless you were on comms with them and they were calling/tracking targets verbally. But then language barriers often caused issues.

This is a quality of life improvement for a class/role.


everyone else is most likely going to be close enough for dropsuit scans or active scanner to pick up everything else in bulk.

Joel II X wrote:
I like it.

Do you suggest a single track, or multiple tracks?


one at a time, otherwise its competing with passive and active scanners IMO
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