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Theory Workshop – Project Nova – Dropsuit Progression

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Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#41 Posted: 2017.06.01 10:08
One Eyed King wrote:
Joel II X wrote:
I don't think I get it.

The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?

Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2

How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?

A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol

Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.

I don't think you get it either.

It is WAAAAY different.

Example: In Dust, if you used a Militia suit, but had all your core skills like Armor, Dampening, Shields etc maxed, and you played against a new player using the exact same Militia suit, your stats would be different because of yours skills.

In Nova, that won't happen. If you use the same Civilian suit, you will have the same stats regardless.

Secondly, in Dust, if you progressed, you simply upgraded your skills. Period. Your armor bonuses were greater, your CPU usages were less etc. In Nova, if you progress, you can now choose module that may have a more specific usage, but it isn't a simple addition or increase. For that more specific bonus, you will lose a bonus that you previously had. It would be like an advanced minmatar scout equivalent in Nova being able to increase his knife damage at the cost of the hacking bonus. So while in that instance you would be able to be a better knifer at a higher tier, you would be doing it at the expense of your hacking ability. In Dust, you simply would increase the bonus, and not lose anything.

The reason for Civilian suits is not that you should want to use them over Tx gear, it is that New Players can just jump into the game without having to learn all about SP and whatnot first. In Dust, if you wanted to try a class, even at standard tier levels, you had to spend SP. If you did not like that style, you just wasted your SP, and you were no further along towards finding what you liked. Also, if you intended to skill in to one suit, but accidentally skilled into another, that was a mistake for life (barring paid respecs, or the incredibly rare free respec). In Nova, you simply choose a different suit.

I think you should slow down, and read through the blog more thoroughly. It is not as scary as it looks.

Reason why I asked such questions is because Pokey wrote that Rattati said that there will be no "pass-thru" content, and then shows us that T3 is obviously the superior choice compared to all other tiers, as well as modules. I seems every item in the game will have a "pass-thru" version of it. It seems like such a backwards thing, so it threw me off.

Also, I assume matchmaking will still put players fresh from Academy unto the cruel, cruel world against anyone, so anyone that is only into T1 will have odds stacked against them if they get put up against T2 players. This also seems weird, since everyone wanted to get rid of this in Dust. Judging from what I remember from the article, it seems only T3 will be limited to its own game mode.

I don't think the article is scary at all, I'm just kind of surprised to see that they're bringing tiers back in a Dust-like balancing manner -- and we all know how that went.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

Solo Zen
#42 Posted: 2017.06.01 10:12
Are you telling me that if I want to max out every role, that I will have to go through the same Civ, T1, T2 basic progression for each one? Wash, rinse, repeat? How agonizing is that? This is going to demoralize polymaths.

Nova player: "Yeah, when I first started playing I chose a heavy class. Now that I'm a year and a half into it, I wish I had gone with assault but it would take too long to do it all over again, so I'll just stick with what I've got. Wish it didn't take so long to level up ..."

Nova player buddy: "Yeah it would be sweet to transfer my skill level over to another class. I'm tired of the same old suit day in and day out. But you're right, it would take forever to get back to where I am now."
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#43 Posted: 2017.06.01 10:13
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Update to original blog post.

UPDATE: CCP Rattati provided some clarification regarding Tech II and sharing gear between classes. Dropsuits initially start with "Fixed" slots which cannot be fit with anything outside that class's initial fit. At Tech II, those slots can be unlocked and converted to Omni slots. This allows the gear in that slot to be transferred to other classes, but it also allows you to fit gear from other classes in that slot. That being said, both classes must unlock Omni slots before they can trade gear between one another. For example, leveling an Assault to Tech II and unlocking the Fixed Shield Extender slot would allow the Shield Extender to be fit to other Classes. However, if I wanted to fit that shield extender to my Vanguard, I would first need to level Vanguard to Tech II and unlock an Omni slot to fit the Shield Extender in. As CCP Rattati put it "Both classes need to reach the same milestone"

A part of me died reading this.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

#44 Posted: 2017.06.01 12:21
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.
#45 Posted: 2017.06.01 12:36
DUST Fiend wrote:
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.

By the sounds of things though, that grind doesn't seem like it would be terribly awful.

Prepare your angus

Solo Zen
#46 Posted: 2017.06.01 12:54
What about celebrating the best of both worlds? Have a skill tree for some core skills, but also build in suit advancement. Core skills would be global bonuses that apply regardless of which suit you are wearing. Suit bonuses would be unlocked for a specific suit as you progress in the suit track. This would prevent civ and T1 from being boilerplate advancement tracks.
OSG Planetary Operations
#47 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:09
Joel II X wrote:

Oh, psh yeah. No doubt it. I just thought CCP wanted to level the playing field by getting rid of tiers in favor of racial bonuses only. I thought the difference from a T1 to a T2 suit would be going to a more specialized suit by it both greater strength and weakness (as in going from 300 shields / 200 armor to 400/100, etc). Same amount of 'tokens', but placed in different locations.

Last question: in your article, did you mean that T1 suits will have T1 bonuses, and T2 will have both T1 and T2 bonuses?

Thanks.


Well the playing field hasn't been completely leveled, but the difference has been reduced significantly. Remember, you're not unlocking new suits, you're taking the base one you have and layering on new bonuses. So your T1 simply turns into your T2, it's not like you'll have a T1 suit sitting in your closet and then a T2 of the same suit sitting next to it.

So yes, each suit has all of the benefits that come before it (T2 has T2 + T1 bonuses). So there is power increase there which was similar in Dust.

However unlike Dust, the slots, hp, resources, ect. Are the same regardless of tech level. Also there are not tiers of weapons, modules, ect. So that's going to be a huge difference in closing that gap.
#48 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:14
DiablosMajora wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.

By the sounds of things though, that grind doesn't seem like it would be terribly awful.

That's actually partly what I'm worried about. It feels like since you can unlock the skills for anything you have equipped that you will either unlock everything too quickly, or each thing will take so long to unlock that it feels like you're never making any meaningful progression.

I guess I'm the only one who thought the very deep and difficult to complete skill tree was a strength instead of a weakness.
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:14  |  Edited by: CCP Rattati
DUST Fiend wrote:
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.

feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market to make you obsolete.

and lol at "make". Play your role and you don't have to do anything. Oh, you "want" another module, earn it.

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

#50 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:18
CCP Rattati wrote:
...market...

Will there still be a Market like there was in Dust? The way progression was described, suits will come pre-equipped with modules so what purpose would a Market served in this instance

Prepare your angus

#51 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:19  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.

feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market to make you obsolete.

and lol at "make". Play your role and you don't have to do anything. Oh, you "want" another module, earn it.

But if you want to flesh out your role....you need full access to modules....to have diversity of fits....to deal with a diversity of issues....thus making the moment to moment gameplay more interesting and deep....

Before if I wanted to try out a shield module on my heavy I just store up some SP, and try it out. Now I have to push down the assault tree that I can't stand just to try it? Sure, I could settle for an inferior or limited fits, but at some point I'll have to play another class just to get access to more fits. It's creating an illusion of depth and diversity by forcing the players down paths that might not interest them in order to give them more things to unlock and "do". It's going to lead to players AFKing (if there are rewards simply for winning or participating, things generally needed to help noobs unless they have a fleshed out area to play for a while) or not really caring about matches they have to grind through in suits they dislike just to try out a build that interests them.

If you're a dedicated Logi you're going to be better than an FOTM chaser at what you do, always. Also, how exactly does one make a dedicated Logi obsolete by cherry picking skills and modules? Other than simply being a more dedicated player who's spent more time with their build, which still doesn't actually lead to any inate in game disadvantage.
#52 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:23
DUST Fiend wrote:
But if you want to flesh out your role....you need full access to modules....to have diversity of fits....to deal with a diversity of issues....thus making the moment to moment gameplay more interesting and deep....

Before if I wanted to try out a shield module on my heavy I just store up some SP, and try it out. Now I have to push down the assault tree that I can't stand just to try it?

If you're a dedicated Logi you're going to be better than an FOTM chaser at what you do, always. Also, how exactly does one make a dedicated Logi obsolete by cherry picking skills and modules? Other than simply being a more dedicated player who's spent more time with their build, which still doesn't actually lead to any inate in game disadvantage.


If I recall, "Assault" will consist of Heavy, Medium, and Light suits. Each "class" has size variants.... unless I misunderstood?

Prepare your angus

C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:24
DUST Fiend wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.

feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market to make you obsolete.

and lol at "make". Play your role and you don't have to do anything. Oh, you "want" another module, earn it.

But if you want to flesh out your role....you need full access to modules....to have diversity of fits....to deal with a diversity of issues....thus making the moment to moment gameplay more interesting and deep....

Before if I wanted to try out a shield module on my heavy I just store up some SP, and try it out. Now I have to push down the assault tree that I can't stand just to try it? Sure, I could settle for an inferior or limited fits, but at some point I'll have to play another class just to get access to more fits. It's creating an illusion of depth and diversity by forcing the players down paths that might not interest them in order to give them more things to unlock and "do". It's going to lead to players AFKing or not really caring about matches they have to grind through in suits they dislike just to try out a build that interests them.

If you're a dedicated Logi you're going to be better than an FOTM chaser at what you do, always. Also, how exactly does one make a dedicated Logi obsolete by cherry picking skills and modules? Other than simply being a more dedicated player who's spent more time with their build, which still doesn't actually lead to any inate in game disadvantage.


no passive sp, so go ahead and try to afk for SP

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

#54 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:27  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
CCP Rattati wrote:
no passive sp, so go ahead and try to afk for SP

Which doesn't address my second point of it creating an environment that you feel forced to play through something you dislike. I have friends who ONLY play support in FPS games. You make them play an assault class and they'll get frustrated or depressed because they can't make any impact, and since you're trying to kill AFK then that means you want a performance not match based reward, they will have that much more trouble unlocking new things, which DIRECTLY punishes newer and less skilled players.

I hope that matchmaker works like a charm and keeps people separated.

Also this begs a question. You say you can't AFK, yet how exactly does one unlock a module by "using it" Does that mean to level up shield extenders I have to keep getting hit to gain XP? Or does it gain XP by victory, or time in match? If either of the latter, AFK is alive and well.
LulKlz
#55 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:40
DUST Fiend wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
no passive sp, so go ahead and try to afk for SP

Which doesn't address my second point of it creating an environment that you feel forced to play through something you dislike. I have friends who ONLY play support in FPS games. You make them play an assault class and they'll get frustrated or depressed because they can't make any impact, and since you're trying to kill AFK then that means you want a performance not match based reward, they will have that much more trouble unlocking new things, which DIRECTLY punishes newer and less skilled players.

I hope that matchmaker works like a charm and keeps people separated.

Also this begs a question. You say you can't AFK, yet how exactly does one unlock a module by "using it" Does that mean to level up shield extenders I have to keep getting hit to gain XP? Or does it gain XP by victory, or time in match? If either of the latter, AFK is alive and well.

WARPOINTS

Your friendly Pub match logi

LulKlz
#56 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:44
I'm not as salty about the concept. Like the idea. Though I do have a question, if I play minlogi and want to use droplinks does that mean I have to play Amarr logi to get them and cal logi for nanohives? If so it would seriously diversify the playing field which is a great idea.

Your friendly Pub match logi

#57 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:46
LOL KILLZ wrote:
WARPOINTS

Please elaborate, I have a desperate, terminal case of the dumb as made evident by the repeated smashing of my face against various inanimate objects.

A WP centric system without passive gains would further punish the newbro that this whole system is supposedly designed to help carry along through the game. If the matchmaker is robust enough and the community large enough and the Academy lasts long enough then I can see this not being much of an issue and concede there. However if the matchmaker / end game activities don't split up the game enough, I don't see how it will stop squads from T2 stomping with a large array of fits and just coming in and crushing newbros anyways.

OSG Planetary Operations
#58 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:51
DUST Fiend wrote:
LOL KILLZ wrote:
WARPOINTS

Please elaborate, I have a desperate, terminal case of the dumb as made evident by the repeated smashing of my face against various inanimate objects.

A WP centric system without passive gains would further punish the newbro that this whole system is supposedly designed to help carry along through the game. If the matchmaker is robust enough and the community large enough and the Academy lasts long enough then I can see this not being much of an issue and concede there. However if the matchmaker / end game activities don't split up the game enough, I don't see how it will stop squads from T2 stomping with a large array of fits and just coming in and crushing newbros anyways.



I will gladly shoot you in the face repeatedly to help you level up. Because we are buddies like that.
Solo Zen
#59 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:55
@Rattati

I would like to better understand your vision for dropsuit advancement timeline. In terms of hours of play, what is your target for maxing out one dropsuit track from civ to T3?

What is your intended reward schedule in terms of dropsuit milestones?

Thank you
#60 Posted: 2017.06.01 13:56
Pokey Dravon wrote:
I will gladly shoot you in the face repeatedly to help you level up. Because we are buddies like that.

I'm not worried about me. With no passive gains I won't have any reason to store up for the eventual potential maybe tm release of vehicles, so unless I happen to get sucked in I just plan to pop in for technical tests and my own curiosity with the development. And if I do get sucked in to the game, while I might be trash I'm far less trash than 60-70% of the regular FPS crowd so I tend to float upwards regardless of how drunk I am.

My arguments simply come from a point of concern in regards to the "soul of DUST" and how exactly this all helps the newbro in the end, thus theoretically justifying the radical shift in design.
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