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Theory Workshop – Project Nova – Dropsuit Progression

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Dead Man's Game
#21 Posted: 2017.05.31 17:07
CCP Rattati wrote:

who knows what happened in between...

I stand by the unexpected peace theory... Where all the mercs stop fighting because they wouldn't leave the red zone.
#22 Posted: 2017.05.31 17:08
CCP Rattati wrote:
who knows what happened in between...

TELL ME THE SECRETS!!!!
#23 Posted: 2017.05.31 17:18  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
Pokey Dravon wrote:
To be fair Dust Fiend, isn't the Forge Gun a modified mining tool? And Minmatar suits have equipment integrated that was originally for heavy industrial lifting. Combat gear originating from humble roots isn't exactly a new concept.

I guess right now I'm having issue with the context. I have trouble conceptualizing things without actually having a physical representation of it to mess around with (i.e., the game) You gotta pull some lore fu over on people like me, because context matters. Maybe CONCORD CONCORDed all the mercs by frying their implant, or perhaps it was just a random glitch and it killed everyone, and then all the equipment was rounded up and salvage (vehicles :') and MCCs and RDVs and Installations along with all the infantry stuff. That would imply a large amount of time and a period of peace or something, in order to regress to the need to use improvised gear to carry out contracts.

OR

Caldari businessmen managed to sell new Dropsuit tech to the masses by using DUST mercs as a trial experiment for wealthy investors. Restricted to Molden Heath they were strictly monitored as they suffered and died, day in and day out for a glory that never existed. Once the dropsuit was perfected for average civilian use, it was ready to be marketed en mass. They hit the killswitch and hurled the evidence into the nearest star.

No one need know of the trial runs....Mordus Trials...

DUSTCEPTION
Incorruptibles
#24 Posted: 2017.05.31 18:17  |  Edited by: Ripley Riley
CCP Rattati wrote:
who knows what happened in between...
I know my merc became a slushie salesman by day, and an exotic dancer going by the name of Ripped Riley by night.

Man has to make a living somehow...
#25 Posted: 2017.05.31 18:32
Pokey Dravon wrote:


However all modules are the same tier, and any variants you unlock are side grades.

So if I understand, there is only one "tier" of each module (standard) and all "sidegrades" are varations thereof? Example being a Drop Uplink, one with faster spawntime but less spawns, and slower spawns but more spawns?

Improvements to modules then come directly from suits and respective classes/roles? If this is the case, it seems to imply that "loot" will not be a thing in Vanilla Nova and modules will not have Meta Levels?

Prepare your angus

OSG Planetary Operations
#26 Posted: 2017.05.31 18:44
DiablosMajora wrote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:


However all modules are the same tier, and any variants you unlock are side grades.

So if I understand, there is only one "tier" of each module (standard) and all "sidegrades" are varations thereof? Example being a Drop Uplink, one with faster spawntime but less spawns, and slower spawns but more spawns?

Improvements to modules then come directly from suits and respective classes/roles? If this is the case, it seems to imply that "loot" will not be a thing in Vanilla Nova and modules will not have Meta Levels?


Correct.
#27 Posted: 2017.05.31 21:24
Pokey Dravon wrote:

Correct.

My initial reaction to that is mixed, however I also realize this is the first iteration of Nova and basic progression details of the game haven't even been completed yet; getting the literal ground game going is the priority.

This brings up another set of possibly premature questions we may not yet have the answer to, such as:

  • What is the business model and how will the game be monetized? Assuming in a similar manner to Dust, SKINs will be back. Will new models come with these a la League of Legends?
  • How big will the maps be and what gametypes can be expected? Again, I can only assume what Dust had in this regard so TDM and King of the Hill-ish modes.
  • What is the incentive to keep playing? In Dust it was the treadmill/grind of skill progression and territory control in high-level play but that seems to be gone in favor of simply upping the size of your bank account. How will a bigger bank account function with a Marketplace, but even then if all suits come pre-equipped with gear will we have a need for a Market?
  • It seems clear now that being a good FPS is the focus, but will the MMO elements be completely thrown out in favor of this or will they be added/iterated upon over time?

Not ranting, just honest questions Smile

Prepare your angus

WarRavens Auxiliaries
#28 Posted: 2017.05.31 21:58  |  Edited by: Terry Webber
DUST Fiend wrote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
To be fair Dust Fiend, isn't the Forge Gun a modified mining tool? And Minmatar suits have equipment integrated that was originally for heavy industrial lifting. Combat gear originating from humble roots isn't exactly a new concept.
I guess right now I'm having issue with the context. I have trouble conceptualizing things without actually having a physical representation of it to mess around with (i.e., the game) You gotta pull some lore fu over on people like me, because context matters. Maybe CONCORD CONCORDed all the mercs by frying their implant, or perhaps it was just a random glitch and it killed everyone, and then all the equipment was rounded up and salvage (vehicles :') and MCCs and RDVs and Installations along with all the infantry stuff. That would imply a large amount of time and a period of peace or something, in order to regress to the need to use improvised gear to carry out contracts.

OR

Caldari businessmen managed to sell new Dropsuit tech to the masses by using DUST mercs as a trial experiment for wealthy investors. Restricted to Molden Heath they were strictly monitored as they suffered and died, day in and day out for a glory that never existed. Once the dropsuit was perfected for average civilian use, it was ready to be marketed en mass. They hit the killswitch and hurled the evidence into the nearest star.

No one need know of the trial runs....Mordus Trials...

DUSTCEPTION
I like the second lore concept better, especially if you consider the fact that the members from the Thukker tribe from Minimatar Republic were the ones who let us take over Molden Heath to kick out the Angel Cartel (https://goo.gl/ebkumS). The Caldari businessmen might have bribed some of them to put this plan into motion. Getting rid of the Cartel was only part of the story.

But this is a tin foil subject for another thread so I won't distract you guys any further from the original discussion of this thread.

P.S. Speaking of this thread, I like the simplicity of the new progression system for dropsuits but I agree with some in this thread that this might be a little too much hand-holding for new players.
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
#29 Posted: 2017.05.31 22:43  |  Edited by: TheD1CK
Derpty Derp wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:

who knows what happened in between...

I stand by the unexpected peace theory... Where all the mercs stop fighting because they wouldn't leave the red zone.
RollPirate



Such dropsuits could have some merit in alternative gamemodes, PVE or resource extraction which is open to raids from other mercenaries then "civilian" dropsuits would be an interesting addition....

One thought would be have Myofibril abilities limited to an engineer class,, keeping a jumping ability and removing it's combat effectiveness, if this class could be selected in any gamemode, I would imagine it to me...

-Medium frame suit -L5?=3 active equipment slots (repair/scan/tools?)-No bandwidth-Sidearm only

This would keep it away from Logistics role.. offer some self defense while also keeping it away from a combat role..
I can't really say how it would fit into a battles purpose without knowing if such suits could potentially affect installations.. drones.. resource recovery.. some maps could have Mining facilities where civilian suits are need to harvest and mercs defend them, earning an evenly shared team bonus so we don't get 16 jumping flaylock engineers trying to farm... as much Pirate

Areas such as the "acid pits" could be accessed in Hazmat suits with a similar layout...
Because the entire area around objective B has gotten some toxic gas leak giving you the option to try a suicide run to capture it before the fumes choke you or assist the team in another Civilian role... interesting Twisted

Nova Knife Now.

CCPLS

Nos Nothi
#30 Posted: 2017.05.31 22:45
After having read through the blog, and thought about it, I think I like the progression the more that I know and think about it. Especially the fact that you have this one suit, that you work on, and amend. It is like having your own house, that you can fix up and upgrade based upon what you want it to be. At first, everyone will have similar stuff (especially within a given role), but as time goes on, roles and playstyles will find their own flavors, even within a role/suit.

Firstly, I like that progression is based on usage. FotM chasing drove me nuts in Dust. People would abuse whatever was OP at the moment, break it so that it got nerfed, then those who really liked the role/item/weapon and were going to use it anyways got the short end of the stick. All the while, the chasers just moved on to wreck something else.

At least this way, people can't stock up on SP then just change roles when what they abused got nerfed.

Plus, it rewards people for sticking to their play style.

Second, I like that some (all?) of the bonuses/modules at the T1 level are tied to a role. This will make it much easier to prevent role bleed. At the same time, allowing gear to be transferable once into T2 means that there is still some freedom to have niche fits, like a fatty with knives.

And while I agree that this is much more streamlined than the Skill Books, I think there is still room for mistakes, if I understood the model correctly. (Which I might not have)

For example: You are able to upgrade to T2 once the first level all T1 gear is unlocked. What happens if you unlock those, and then immediately upgrade to T2? It would appear that once you are in a T2 suit, that the T1 gear no longer gets upgraded. Or maybe you have the ability to chose playing in T1 gear to continue to upgrade gear, even though your T2 suit is available? Can't really tell.

What I didn't like, on the initial read through, was the way in which gear that was not within a role needed to be achieved. It seemed like a lot of work to have to take another role and play it until you unlock things in T2 suits (which it still could be depending on the amount of grind). I think, in the end though, that I would rather reward people for using items the way this system does, than to allow just anyone to get any gear they wanted, regardless of the suits and items they played with. Plus, it is not like there was a hard wall put up between suits and item usage, there is still the ability to, if you wanted to put forth the effort.

Lastly, I think the T3 concept is really interesting. In Dust, it did kind of stink when you were in this role, like a Minja, and you had these bonuses. Some of which you really wanted to take advantage of (knife bonus), some of which you may not have at times (hacking). With T3 and the firmware, you seem to be able to adjust those to your liking, and maybe making all the bonuses of a suit compliment the role you want to play versus having 2/3 bonuses reflect a role.

In the end, hands on experience obviously lacking, I think they have created an improved system of progression. I think it reduces any concern that the game would simply be dumbed down too much, and that there would not be any freedom at all. It does a good job of balancing simplicity for new "civilian" players, while allowing veterans freedom to change bonuses and gear without being able to do it in an easily abusive manner.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Nos Nothi
#31 Posted: 2017.05.31 22:51
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Luckily I have a degree in Civil Engineering. I am qualified to use a civilian suit.

Does that mean YOU can fix the tram?

Ripley Riley wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
who knows what happened in between...
I know my merc became a slushie salesman by day, and an exotic dancer going by the name of Ripped Riley by night.

Man has to make a living somehow...


I thought that was you I saw getting into that semi with the trucker...

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#32 Posted: 2017.06.01 01:44
I don't think I get it.

The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?

Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2

How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?

A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol

Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

Nos Nothi
#33 Posted: 2017.06.01 02:09
Joel II X wrote:
I don't think I get it.

The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?

Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2

How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?

A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol

Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.

I don't think you get it either.

It is WAAAAY different.

Example: In Dust, if you used a Militia suit, but had all your core skills like Armor, Dampening, Shields etc maxed, and you played against a new player using the exact same Militia suit, your stats would be different because of yours skills.

In Nova, that won't happen. If you use the same Civilian suit, you will have the same stats regardless.

Secondly, in Dust, if you progressed, you simply upgraded your skills. Period. Your armor bonuses were greater, your CPU usages were less etc. In Nova, if you progress, you can now choose module that may have a more specific usage, but it isn't a simple addition or increase. For that more specific bonus, you will lose a bonus that you previously had. It would be like an advanced minmatar scout equivalent in Nova being able to increase his knife damage at the cost of the hacking bonus. So while in that instance you would be able to be a better knifer at a higher tier, you would be doing it at the expense of your hacking ability. In Dust, you simply would increase the bonus, and not lose anything.

The reason for Civilian suits is not that you should want to use them over Tx gear, it is that New Players can just jump into the game without having to learn all about SP and whatnot first. In Dust, if you wanted to try a class, even at standard tier levels, you had to spend SP. If you did not like that style, you just wasted your SP, and you were no further along towards finding what you liked. Also, if you intended to skill in to one suit, but accidentally skilled into another, that was a mistake for life (barring paid respecs, or the incredibly rare free respec). In Nova, you simply choose a different suit.

I think you should slow down, and read through the blog more thoroughly. It is not as scary as it looks.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

OSG Planetary Operations
#34 Posted: 2017.06.01 02:10  |  Edited by: Pokey Dravon
Joel II X wrote:
I don't think I get it.

The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?

Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2

How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?

A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol

Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.


Advantages you could have in Dust
Core Skills (Boost base stats)
Modules Skills (Boost module stats)
Dropsuit Skills (Bonuses)
Module Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Dropsuit Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Weapon Tiers (MLT-PRO)

Advantages you can have in Nova
Tech I bonuses (boost module stats)
Tech II bonuses (dropsuit bonuses)
Tech III bonuses (slight better dropsuit bonuses - replaces Tech II bonus while active)

Which do you think has worse power creep? I'd say Dust.
OSG Planetary Operations
#35 Posted: 2017.06.01 05:35
Update to original blog post.

UPDATE: CCP Rattati provided some clarification regarding Tech II and sharing gear between classes. Dropsuits initially start with "Fixed" slots which cannot be fit with anything outside that class's initial fit. At Tech II, those slots can be unlocked and converted to Omni slots. This allows the gear in that slot to be transferred to other classes, but it also allows you to fit gear from other classes in that slot. That being said, both classes must unlock Omni slots before they can trade gear between one another. For example, leveling an Assault to Tech II and unlocking the Fixed Shield Extender slot would allow the Shield Extender to be fit to other Classes. However, if I wanted to fit that shield extender to my Vanguard, I would first need to level Vanguard to Tech II and unlock an Omni slot to fit the Shield Extender in. As CCP Rattati put it "Both classes need to reach the same milestone"
Obscure Reference
#36 Posted: 2017.06.01 08:29
"So I have to play a class I don't like to unlock something for my preferred suit, well I'll just go AFK"

This means the progression shouldn't be time based system
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 Posted: 2017.06.01 09:15
Juno Tristan wrote:
"So I have to play a class I don't like to unlock something for my preferred suit, well I'll just go AFK"

This means the progression shouldn't be time based system


no passive SP, feel free to afk

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Solo Zen
#38 Posted: 2017.06.01 09:30
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Update to original blog post.

UPDATE: CCP Rattati provided some clarification regarding Tech II and sharing gear between classes. Dropsuits initially start with "Fixed" slots which cannot be fit with anything outside that class's initial fit. At Tech II, those slots can be unlocked and converted to Omni slots. This allows the gear in that slot to be transferred to other classes, but it also allows you to fit gear from other classes in that slot. That being said, both classes must unlock Omni slots before they can trade gear between one another. For example, leveling an Assault to Tech II and unlocking the Fixed Shield Extender slot would allow the Shield Extender to be fit to other Classes. However, if I wanted to fit that shield extender to my Vanguard, I would first need to level Vanguard to Tech II and unlock an Omni slot to fit the Shield Extender in. As CCP Rattati put it "Both classes need to reach the same milestone"


Seems convoluted. What is the point of this? To prevent people from using Civ and Tech I suits for versatile fittings? Why is this necessary? The "emotional attachment to the suit" argument is unfounded. A lot of dust players were emotionally attached to their suits, and we weren't subjected to these contrived limitations.

How many hours of play are required to progress through this nonsense?
Obscure Reference
#39 Posted: 2017.06.01 09:36
CCP Rattati wrote:
Juno Tristan wrote:
"So I have to play a class I don't like to unlock something for my preferred suit, well I'll just go AFK"

This means the progression shouldn't be time based system


no passive SP, feel free to afk


People will try and break the game so the progression system has to be pretty robust to deal with it.

If I can upgrade my dropsuit by simply deploying it for X matches or spending Y time in it then it encourages AFK behavior in some of the playerbase

Any active system can also be exploited if the PCE (Planetary Conquest Equivalent) allows for 'friendly' matches to be set up. Such as rep X damage or supply Y ammo. So perhaps should be excluded from generating progression or a cap per match applied
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#40 Posted: 2017.06.01 09:50
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Joel II X wrote:
I don't think I get it.

The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?

Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2

How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?

A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol

Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.


Advantages you could have in Dust
Core Skills (Boost base stats)
Modules Skills (Boost module stats)
Dropsuit Skills (Bonuses)
Module Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Dropsuit Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Weapon Tiers (MLT-PRO)

Advantages you can have in Nova
Tech I bonuses (boost module stats)
Tech II bonuses (dropsuit bonuses)
Tech III bonuses (slight better dropsuit bonuses - replaces Tech II bonus while active)

Which do you think has worse power creep? I'd say Dust.

Oh, psh yeah. No doubt it. I just thought CCP wanted to level the playing field by getting rid of tiers in favor of racial bonuses only. I thought the difference from a T1 to a T2 suit would be going to a more specialized suit by it both greater strength and weakness (as in going from 300 shields / 200 armor to 400/100, etc). Same amount of 'tokens', but placed in different locations.

Last question: in your article, did you mean that T1 suits will have T1 bonuses, and T2 will have both T1 and T2 bonuses?

Thanks.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

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