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Theory Workshop – Project Nova – Dropsuit Progression

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OSG Planetary Operations
#1 Posted: 2017.05.31 07:14
Our role in this episode of Theory Workshop, we will be exploring an expansion of a concept present by the developers of CCP’s Project Nova. Specifically, we will be discussing dropsuit progression and unlocking gear. Please bear in mind that this is simply an expansion of an idea that was presented by the developer and should be considered a starting point for a discussion and not a finalized concept.

http://biomassed.net/2017/05/31/theory-workshop-project-nova-dropsuit-progression/

Please discuss and provide feedback!
Direct Action Resources
Rise Of Legion.
#2 Posted: 2017.05.31 12:40  |  Edited by: Nomex Gallatin
That really helps to clear up and mollifies my top concerns about dropsuit progress.

It will be pretty fun testing these fits in the alpha/beta, really looking forward to trying out my new logi suit.

Thanks Pokey!

“… shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.” - General Heinz Gaedke

#3 Posted: 2017.05.31 12:57
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.
OSG Planetary Operations
#4 Posted: 2017.05.31 13:17
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.


Just going off of the terms Rattati used for that one.
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5 Posted: 2017.05.31 13:19
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.

where does it not exist, in your mind?

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

#6 Posted: 2017.05.31 13:36  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.

where does it not exist, in your mind?

A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die.

Also

Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA Roll

I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone.

"The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."


Found here, though not an official source.

Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic.
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#7 Posted: 2017.05.31 14:27  |  Edited by: Vrain Matari
I like it in terms of accessibility, I hate it because character development is on rails.

One great thing about MMOs, Eve and Dust in particular, is that sense of agency that comes from making tough, interesting & exciting decisions while growing your character.

Rattati's comment about the pain-in-the-assedness of the earn sp-buy skillbook-use skillbook-spend sp-etc. was right on the money and that part of the progression system really needed to go.

As presented, Nova is being streamlined, which is good, but at the cost of player volition. There are far fewer opportunities to make stupid mistakes in Nova, and far fewer opportunities to make smart/wise decisions in Nova. Is there even any kind of long game anymore in regards to player development? I suppose it comes down to what order we choose to work through the unlocks.

Mentally taxing it is not.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

OSG Planetary Operations
#8 Posted: 2017.05.31 14:47
You're correct that it's more on the rails than what we are used to, and more aptly put, less room to make mistakes.

I think in some sense, allowing new players to make lots of mistakes is kind of counterproductive. I know we love to put our Dust Hipster Hats on and talk about how it needs to be ultra hardcore because we went through that and that's how it should be.

But to someone who is new, particularly a broad audience, punishing people for making long term choices that they have no means of actually understanding isn't good game design. Like we joke about it now, but I've talked to new players who spent a ton of SP on Dropsuit Operation IV and V because they were under the impression that it would unlock new suits.

Now obviously that skill had issues, but that player felt absolutely ****** because he had made a long term irreversible mistake at a time when that SP could have really been spent on something he needed early on. Was it his fault that he didn't read every item description and guide to realize he was wasting his SP? Sure, but is it really reasonable to demand that players be extremely well versed in a game they just started playing? Absolutely not.

Now the direction I see the dev team pushing is more so "There is less room to make mistakes in the long term skill training stage...however we are trying to give players as many short term choices (such as fitting) as possible, which means plenty of room for mistakes. The difference being is that a stupid fit screws you for one battle, a stupid choice leveling a skill to V could screw you for weeks. Choice should matter, but the act of realizing you screwed up and trying to figure out how to fix it next time is fun...grinding sp to fix a bad skill choice, not so much.
#9 Posted: 2017.05.31 15:14
The progression is all well and good, but I have a couple of questions/concerns.
How big will the power/bonus be between each tier of dropsuits?
Are there mechanics in place to prevent or discourage protostomping like we had before in Dust, be they monetary rewards or lack thereof?

Prepare your angus

#10 Posted: 2017.05.31 15:14  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
Pokey Dravon wrote:

But to someone who is new, particularly a broad audience, punishing people for making long term choices that they have no means of actually understanding isn't good game design.

Free Respec

*forum explodes* Ahh, those were the good ol' days.

Seriously though. Same exact system, but respec as you please, perhaps with an ISK cost at most. Your SP is yours to do with as you please.

And I realize I'm not getting my way with this lol, I just feel the need to provide counterpoints anyways.
OSG Planetary Operations
#11 Posted: 2017.05.31 15:18  |  Edited by: Pokey Dravon
DiablosMajora wrote:
The progression is all well and good, but I have a couple of questions/concerns.
How big will the power/bonus be between each tier of dropsuits?
Are there mechanics in place to prevent or discourage protostomping like we had before in Dust, be they monetary rewards or lack thereof?


Well, players unlock the bonuses to the modules fairly early, that's probably the biggest jump in power/survivability.

Bonuses are of course the next big jump. However you basically had these in DUST anyways (core skills and role bonuses).

However all modules are the same tier, and any variants you unlock are side grades. So I'm terms of actual fitting, there is zero disparity in power between vet and noob, only the ability for more variety.

I'm short, you can have an advantage over a new player if your dropsuit is upgraded, but any protostomping effect will be largely diminished.
Obscure Reference
#12 Posted: 2017.05.31 15:26
The alternative to changing the SP system or laughing at the newbro with Dropsuit Operation 5 would be to just remove dead/no effect upgrades.

I.e. can only upgrade to 3 for Dropsuit operation, and no unlock at 1, 3 & 5.

Interesting point about respecs though, in the old system I would think it was quite the money spinner, but I guess we don't know what monetization model Nova will follow.
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 Posted: 2017.05.31 16:46
DUST Fiend wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.

where does it not exist, in your mind?

A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die.

Also

Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA Roll

I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone.

"The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."


Found here, though not an official source.

Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic.

Civilian can also stand for "used for civilian work" such as civil engineering. Hazmat suits and zero-g maintenance work could theoretically be jobs that are "now" done by specialists, retired mercs etc.

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Made in Poland...
#14 Posted: 2017.05.31 16:47  |  Edited by: Mejt0
Pokey Dravon wrote:
You're correct that it's more on the rails than what we are used to, and more aptly put, less room to make mistakes.

I think in some sense, allowing new players to make lots of mistakes is kind of counterproductive. I know we love to put our Dust Hipster Hats on and talk about how it needs to be ultra hardcore because we went through that and that's how it should be.

But to someone who is new, particularly a broad audience, punishing people for making long term choices that they have no means of actually understanding isn't good game design. Like we joke about it now, but I've talked to new players who spent a ton of SP on Dropsuit Operation IV and V because they were under the impression that it would unlock new suits.

Now obviously that skill had issues, but that player felt absolutely ****** because he had made a long term irreversible mistake at a time when that SP could have really been spent on something he needed early on. Was it his fault that he didn't read every item description and guide to realize he was wasting his SP? Sure, but is it really reasonable to demand that players be extremely well versed in a game they just started playing? Absolutely not.

Now the direction I see the dev team pushing is more so "There is less room to make mistakes in the long term skill training stage...however we are trying to give players as many short term choices (such as fitting) as possible, which means plenty of room for mistakes. The difference being is that a stupid fit screws you for one battle, a stupid choice leveling a skill to V could screw you for weeks. Choice should matter, but the act of realizing you screwed up and trying to figure out how to fix it next time is fun...grinding sp to fix a bad skill choice, not so much.


I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I didn't know anyone (that I'm aware of) who would spend SP on useless skills. It was the other way around.
SP was hard to get and you needed lots of it thus making you think : what do I spend it on.
Honestly, if someone can't add 1 to 1 and read 10 words, he deserves to be punished Roll


Just don't give people the feeling of : my mistakes don't matter, is all I'm asking for. As it will create a whiny playerbase.

Now more to the point. All of this looks very simplistic.
Unlock system - I hope it won't require from you too many hours to get tech II
Choose few mods, choose a bonus = your fit is good to go. You can't go more basic any further than this Blink so it should do

The thing I'm most curious about is Ewar as it was one of my favourtie parts of the game.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

OSG Planetary Operations
#15 Posted: 2017.05.31 16:48
Luckily I have a degree in Civil Engineering. I am qualified to use a civilian suit.
#16 Posted: 2017.05.31 16:50
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.

where does it not exist, in your mind?

A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die.

Also

Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA Roll

I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone.

"The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."


Found here, though not an official source.

Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic.

Civilian can also stand for "used for civilian work" such as civil engineering. Hazmat suits and zero-g maintenance work could theoretically be jobs that are "now" done by specialists, retired mercs etc.

Fair enough, but why would mercs be using such low end equipment for combat purposes? I know the burden of past decisions really isn't on you but all mercs were given warbarges, yet are running around in the Janitors Iron Man cosplay? I'm curious if there will be any lore in New Eden reflecting what happened to DUST.

I know there are far bigger fish to fry lol, just me resisting change o7
C C P
C C P Alliance
#17 Posted: 2017.05.31 16:54
DUST Fiend wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.

where does it not exist, in your mind?

A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die.

Also

Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA Roll

I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone.

"The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."


Found here, though not an official source.

Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic.

Civilian can also stand for "used for civilian work" such as civil engineering. Hazmat suits and zero-g maintenance work could theoretically be jobs that are "now" done by specialists, retired mercs etc.

Fair enough, but why would mercs be using such low end equipment for combat purposes? I know the burden of past decisions really isn't on you but all mercs were given warbarges, yet are running around in the Janitors Iron Man cosplay? I'm curious if there will be any lore in New Eden reflecting what happened to DUST.

I know there are far bigger fish to fry lol, just me resisting change o7


who knows what happened in between...

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Nos Nothi
#18 Posted: 2017.05.31 16:57
I will share further thoughts later as I am still reading through and processing, but I just wanted to say that I can't imagine anyone reading through that and thinking that Nova will still come out like CoD.

Overall I am really liking it, but I will come by later with more specific thoughts.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

OSG Planetary Operations
#19 Posted: 2017.05.31 17:03
To be fair Dust Fiend, isn't the Forge Gun a modified mining tool? And Minmatar suits have equipment integrated that was originally for heavy industrial lifting. Combat gear originating from humble roots isn't exactly a new concept.
Federation Marines 62
#20 Posted: 2017.05.31 17:06
CCP Rattati wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.

where does it not exist, in your mind?


As Fiend said after, civilians are meh in merc suits.

How about-
Merc (paid soldier) - replaces militia gear (tier 1)
Militia (somewhat official military) - replaces basic gear (tier 2)
Recruit/ low class enlistee (official military) - replaces advanced gear (tier 3)
Chiefs /High class enlistee (official military) - replaces proto gear (tier 4)
Officer (official military) - officer stuff (tier 5)

You had mentioned now fighting for factions which would work.

As you continue to fight for each faction, you work up your way in their military systems starting as a merc and later become an officer

CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company

Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP

Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad

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