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Revisionist New Eden thought experiment.

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Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#1 Posted: 2017.05.27 00:49  |  Edited by: Vrain Matari
Short & sweet:

Dust launches in early 2012 but with two revisions:

  • it's the version of Dust we had when they shut down the servers, the Rattati'd version
  • it's got butter smooth mechanics, masterful netcode and solid well-distributed servers.

Successful?

Edit: let's also get rid of the PS3: assume that this Dust that never was launched on PC.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#2 Posted: 2017.05.27 07:27
Unsuccessful.

Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues.

In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance.

It's probably a Thale's.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

0uter.Heaven
#3 Posted: 2017.05.27 09:07
Joel II X wrote:
Unsuccessful.

Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues.

In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance.

It's probably a Thale's.

Yeah, but there would be no "Vets" at that time everyone would be new.


None the less the inevitability of dominance of vets would creep up.

EVE Trial 250k Bonus SP

EVE Chat channel for dust players: Photon Depot

OSG Planetary Operations
#4 Posted: 2017.05.27 16:16
Unsuccessful. Rattati did a bang up job of working with what was there, but far too many core systems were flawed for me to deem the game a success.
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#5 Posted: 2017.05.28 05:12  |  Edited by: Vrain Matari
Joel II X wrote:
Unsuccessful.

Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues.

In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance.

It's probably a Thale's.

Damn near poetry, that.

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#6 Posted: 2017.05.28 07:25
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:
Joel II X wrote:
Unsuccessful.

Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues.

In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance.

It's probably a Thale's.

Yeah, but there would be no "Vets" at that time everyone would be new.


None the less the inevitability of dominance of vets would creep up.

At that time, sure. Judging a game like Dust to see if it's successful based on its first numbers doesn't mean anything. The longer it goes on, the farther away the prophesy seems in coming true. Especially if it's no longer in beta.

Dust failed because it couldn't retain players, not because players didn't check it out.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

#7 Posted: 2017.05.28 15:14  |  Edited by: byte modal
Humble opinion. Even if DUST had your bullet points, it would still only be maybe half of what it would need to be to sustain itself. Things like economy, player progression (zones of some sort, however that plays out. Think: kiddie pool to deep-end progression ...or some way to wean new players on) in combination with some form of match making where there would be a type of sliding scale dependency between the two, adjustments to risk/reward, more approachable UI to reinforce the purpose and function of abstract concepts like pg/CPU to clearly show their affects on suit customization, and skill point rework from active to passive and to show how those affect suit fits and equipment progression more clearly.

kitten bacon taco (nom)

#8 Posted: 2017.05.28 16:55  |  Edited by: DUST Fiend
Net positive. If PC worked and were tweaked slightly along with a little higher overall player count then matchmaking would actually start to work.

I didnt really care for the new "waves of opportunity" philosphy for vehicles though, it never made sense in a game with a redline you could easily retreat to. Whoever had that brilliant idea probably shouldnt have.
Grupo de Asalto Chacal
#9 Posted: 2017.05.28 18:37
Not sure if successful, but more successful for sure.

Like some others have pointed out, the game still lacks:

-Meaningful connection with Eve.
-Meaningful economy (individual management of resources was OK, I mean between individuals, corps, etc)
-Good NPE beyond the academy for when the Proto-Vets would arise.
-Good balance between vehicles and infantry.

Eventually, the rogue wedding would still have happened (probably a converging point for all worldlines) due to the game being in PS3 and therefore being unable to fulfill the original vision. This would have, like it did in our worldline, crippled the playerbase beyond a point of no return. Maybe more would have stayed for longer, but eventually it would have been shut down as well. BUT, maybe this Dust would have been able to survive until Nova deployed.
#10 Posted: 2017.05.29 23:33
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:
Joel II X wrote:
Unsuccessful.

Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues.

In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance.

It's probably a Thale's.

Yeah, but there would be no "Vets" at that time everyone would be new.


None the less the inevitability of dominance of vets would creep up.

It still would. The most understated issue Dust 514 had was that it was very discouraging for new players to have a fun time because all the veterans would be way ahead of them, which gave new players a P2W-esque experience for several months. That discouraged a lot of people who tried to get into the community after release.

And as people stated above Mr, having PVE would have solved this.

This is why Nova plans to make it so people don't lose ISK in public matches.

Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.

C C P
C C P Alliance
#11 Posted: 2017.05.30 15:27
if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better.

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

#12 Posted: 2017.05.30 15:43
Joel II X wrote:

Dust failed because it couldn't retain players, not because players didn't check it out.

And it didn't retain players because of how buggy and laggy it was, which also ruined the end game activity for most, forcing them back into pubs with a matchmaking system that never really worked.

It had next to nothing to do with game mechanics.
Federation Marines 62
#13 Posted: 2017.05.30 15:48
Joel II X wrote:
Unsuccessful.

Vets will still be stomping new friends. New friends never come back to ascend to vet-dom. [I]New[I] new friends join and get stomped. The cycle continues.

In a far away land, a prophesy is spread throughout the masses: "How to Improve NPE!" They look towards the horizon for a hero, only to find a red shevron in the distance.

It's probably a Thale's.



Your last sentences makes the Quafe Master chuckle!

CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company

Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP

Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad

Federation Marines 62
#14 Posted: 2017.05.30 15:50  |  Edited by: Lightning35 Delta514
CCP Rattati wrote:
if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better.


Agreed.
Quick word regarding vehicles, has any thought been put into working on vehicles away from infantry and possibly implementing them through a different game mode? Balancing vehicles against vehicles and away from infantry could possibly allow for future implementation similar to Dust

CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company

Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP

Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad

LulKlz
#15 Posted: 2017.05.30 17:37
CCP Rattati wrote:
if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better.

+1

Your friendly Pub match logi

Klandatu
#16 Posted: 2017.05.30 23:38
Vrain Matari wrote:
Short & sweet:

Dust launches in early 2012 but with two revisions:

  • it's the version of Dust we had when they shut down the servers, the Rattati'd version
  • it's got butter smooth mechanics, masterful netcode and solid well-distributed servers.

Successful?


Succesful yes.

In the long run no.

The problem.

The ps3.
Grupo de Asalto Chacal
#17 Posted: 2017.05.30 23:41
CCP Rattati wrote:
if we thought that would have worked, we would have done so. I am certain we can improve and do better.


Am I the only who thinks this is vague?
Like, I dont get what you are referring to xD
Could you clarify, señor Rattati?
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
#18 Posted: 2017.05.31 01:33
Full disclosure, this thread was intended as an attempt to separate out the incidentals(poor code, poor mechanics, lag) from the heart of the current conversation we're having, game design.

We all suffered tremendously(the devs more than the players, methinks) from the crappy foundations Dust had but for the conversation going forward we have to forget about that and hone in on the game design. Adding an edit to the OP to also get rid of the PS3 factor.

Dust Fiend makes a great point regarding new player frustration with game mechanics, i'd like riff on that by suggesting there was a feedback loop: crappy mechanics served to amplify players' frustration with game design and vice versa.

Dust lost players on both ends: in the first 15 minutes and in the long term.

Still, something in Dust's game design gave Dust its magic: we all know it's not an easy game to forget and we all know that there's not another game out there that gives the experience Dust did. I want to make sure we identify what that was and keep it in Nova.

Re: the OP imho without the poor mechanics or end of platform issue Dust would have had much longer legs and the deeper playerbase would have alleviated a significant amount of new player frustration. Revenue and server population would have reflected this. That being said, many players above(and the devs, obviously) have identified pathological game design that meant poor long-term prospects for Dust.

Short term crappy and long term pathological, so where did the magic come in?

Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....

Nos Nothi
#19 Posted: 2017.05.31 01:38
Vrain Matari wrote:
Full disclosure, this thread was intended as an attempt to separate out the incidentals(poor code, poor mechanics, lag) from the heart of the current conversation we're having, game design.

We all suffered tremendously(the devs more than the players, methinks) from the crappy foundations Dust had but for the conversation going forward we have to forget about that and hone in on the game design. Adding an edit to the OP to also get rid of the PS3 factor.

Dust Fiend makes a great point regarding new player frustration with game mechanics, i'd like riff on that by suggesting there was a feedback loop: crappy mechanics served to amplify players' frustration with game design and vice versa.

Dust lost players on both ends: in the first 15 minutes and in the long term.

Still, something in Dust's game design gave Dust its magic: we all know it's not an easy game to forget and we all know that there's not another game out there that gives the experience Dust did. I want to make sure we identify what that was and keep it in Nova.

Re: the OP imho without the poor mechanics or end of platform issue Dust would have had much longer legs and the deeper playerbase would have alleviated a significant amount of new player frustration. Revenue and server population would have reflected this. That being said, many players above(and the devs, obviously) have identified pathological game design that meant poor long-term prospects for Dust.

Short term crappy and long term pathological, so where did the magic come in?

The magic came in during those moments and those battles where the game hit all the right notes. At some points, the game had enough of them to keep playing. At others, we just kept hoping we would catch one moment for old time's sake.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Grupo de Asalto Chacal
#20 Posted: 2017.05.31 03:09
Being in a corporation was different than being in a clan in other games.
You werent just 50 people, you were something more.
You actually did things as a corp, and it had perks beyond just having people to play with.
And even in that regard, it was easy to play with people from the corp you didnt know.

Some people are saying that if you remove vehicles then you kill the Dust spirit, but I disagree.
If you make the corps feel like clans from other games, then you kill the Dust spirit.
This, to me, made the game worth playing.
Sometimes it was unplayable, but when it was not, and it was crappy, you still had fun playing with your friends.

After nailing the basic gameplay, you should focus on the social aspect of the game.

I would say, if you removed proto stomping, then the game would have survived for a lot of time.
Devs should work to prevent this from happening in Nova.
If there were no technical problems, and no balance problems, with the current social meta,
even if all the other meta was pure **** (for arguments sake, not saying it was), economy, politics, no eve link, etc...
I think most if not all of my corp mates would have played until the end, or maybe until the player base shrinked enough,
but for us the biggest deal breakers were the technical problems and the balance issues.
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