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Discussion - Should PG and CPU be combined into one?

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Direct Action Resources
Rise Of Legion.
#121 Posted: 2017.05.19 14:17
Clone D wrote:
Here's the thing. When you dumb the game down to go mainstream, then you blend in with every other game on the market and you become a FAD.

I don't want a fad game. I want a game that I can get lost in, that I can play for years on end. I want to be transported into another world and learn the particulars of how to survive there. I want nuances, a steep learning curve, and lore-based justifications for why game elements exist in their deliberately designed form.

I want to enter a deep and persistent alternate reality.

There is a niche here that you tapped into with Dust 514; one that has room to grow. Please don't abandon it, even if the intent behind Nova doesn't match anything I just said. At some point, with another future game, pick up where you left off.

Take us back into the heart of EVE. Let us dive into the sci fi FPS that we all wanted, where EVE pilots and valkyrie ships provide support to troops on the ground; where the feeling of being an EVE mercenary is unique, earned and memorable.


F'n A Clotton, F'n A.

Well said Clone D.

“… shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.” - General Heinz Gaedke

#122 Posted: 2017.05.19 14:21
Richard Gamerich-R wrote:
lol "SC". This game, no sorry, this pre-Alpha Alpha Alpha Alpha who will be ready in 2025 (maybe), is overrated af.

You obviously don't follow it much lol. 3.0 is right around the corner and between S42, SM, AC and the current PU the pre pre pre alpha is bigger than some games lol

But stay salty lad o7
warravens
Imperium Eden
#123 Posted: 2017.05.19 14:29  |  Edited by: Joseph Ridgeson
Seeing this makes me happy as it might show that Nova isn't, how should I say this, Legionized?

So pros and cons.

Pros
* As Rattati said, a lot more straightforward. Not having to balance two separate things means it is easier for players and developers.
* It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.
* It removes frustration that occurs from having to totally downgrade specific modules and upgrade other ones just because of "I am missing one goddamn CPU but have 34 PG! So because of 1 CPU, I lose 70 HP?!"


Cons:
* While frustration is removed, the joy of gaming the system is missed. Whenever I managed to get a stable PG and CPU rating for my tanks and get the exact kind of power I wanted, I felt over the moon. I conquered the system and the brainpower I spent on figuring out the best load outs gave me results. (This is kind of like the 'ownership' that I think was central to DUST; this wasn't just a Caldari Assault suit or a Madrugar. It was MY Caldari Assault)
* It might be a slippery-slope of removing options. "Well, if no one is using the Caldari Assault and the only Logistics used is the Minmatar one, why not just make one class?"
* Equipping suits may very well become more of a 'problem' rather than a 'choice.' It becomes so much easier to say "this is simply better than that" rather than "well, the option is between a big apple or a small orange."
* Any suit that has more 'fitting' than the other will overshadow the others in that same role.


My thoughts:
EVE is a complex game and that level of complexity should in no way shape or form be in any game that is trying to be more casual. This is one of the reasons why I loved DUST's principals. CCP is only known for one game and that game is, for lack of a better term, a gigantic megabitch of complexity. DUST, being a far faster game and being more about moment to moment stuff, was better off not having megabitch problems. However, the complexity that existed did make for a unique game. I think that scaling things back to be more approachable is a good idea. However, I am wary to think of just going that streamlined.

The fitting system is probably the greatest success of DUST. Forget about the first of "we are a console game 'tied' to an MMO computer game!" that got all pomp. The notion of being able to greatly change suits was really cool. I remember making Sentinel suits with dampeners because I saw that I was able to reduce my profile to within medium for medium suits and close range for other sentinels. I was able to actually flank people and catch them off guard, even if the suit was impressively weaker. It was funny to have that. It needed the proper High and Low slots; just saying "okay, these are defensive and these offensive" removes that coolness.

Overall, I think it might be a better idea to stick this idea with vehicles rather than suits assuming they are in the game. Vehicles should have very specific roles that make them useful in their role. Dropsuits, being most of the game, should still allow for some of that greater complexity. But, oddly, I am in less favor of "Defensive and Offensive" module slots rather than combining fitting into a single simple number. The fitting system is THE thing that made DUST unique, the ability to truly make the suit you are walking around in YOUR suit. Limiting that, I feel, is a bad idea. I can see the reasoning behind making CPU/PG into "Power" but High and low Slots that have multiple functionalities and choices into "Defensive is dampening, HP, or run faster" and "Offensive is damage and precision/range mods for radar" seems like a very poor decision to me.

Still, it is an interesting thought. And if nothing else, I am truly happy that Nova is being looked at as "how can we make this more approachable?" rather than "so how do we get the megabitch in here?"

"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Made in Poland...
#124 Posted: 2017.05.19 17:33
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.


But isn't this the point tho :)
As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them.
If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar.
Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

ROGUE RELICS
#125 Posted: 2017.05.20 02:43
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
Seeing this makes me happy as it might show that Nova isn't, how should I say this, Legionized?

So pros and cons.

Pros
* As Rattati said, a lot more straightforward. Not having to balance two separate things means it is easier for players and developers.
* It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.
* It removes frustration that occurs from having to totally downgrade specific modules and upgrade other ones just because of "I am missing one goddamn CPU but have 34 PG! So because of 1 CPU, I lose 70 HP?!"


Cons:
* While frustration is removed, the joy of gaming the system is missed. Whenever I managed to get a stable PG and CPU rating for my tanks and get the exact kind of power I wanted, I felt over the moon. I conquered the system and the brainpower I spent on figuring out the best load outs gave me results. (This is kind of like the 'ownership' that I think was central to DUST; this wasn't just a Caldari Assault suit or a Madrugar. It was MY Caldari Assault)
* It might be a slippery-slope of removing options. "Well, if no one is using the Caldari Assault and the only Logistics used is the Minmatar one, why not just make one class?"
* Equipping suits may very well become more of a 'problem' rather than a 'choice.' It becomes so much easier to say "this is simply better than that" rather than "well, the option is between a big apple or a small orange."
* Any suit that has more 'fitting' than the other will overshadow the others in that same role.


My thoughts:
EVE is a complex game and that level of complexity should in no way shape or form be in any game that is trying to be more casual. This is one of the reasons why I loved DUST's principals. CCP is only known for one game and that game is, for lack of a better term, a gigantic megabitch of complexity. DUST, being a far faster game and being more about moment to moment stuff, was better off not having megabitch problems. However, the complexity that existed did make for a unique game. I think that scaling things back to be more approachable is a good idea. However, I am wary to think of just going that streamlined.

The fitting system is probably the greatest success of DUST. Forget about the first of "we are a console game 'tied' to an MMO computer game!" that got all pomp. The notion of being able to greatly change suits was really cool. I remember making Sentinel suits with dampeners because I saw that I was able to reduce my profile to within medium for medium suits and close range for other sentinels. I was able to actually flank people and catch them off guard, even if the suit was impressively weaker. It was funny to have that. It needed the proper High and Low slots; just saying "okay, these are defensive and these offensive" removes that coolness.

Overall, I think it might be a better idea to stick this idea with vehicles rather than suits assuming they are in the game. Vehicles should have very specific roles that make them useful in their role. Dropsuits, being most of the game, should still allow for some of that greater complexity. But, oddly, I am in less favor of "Defensive and Offensive" module slots rather than combining fitting into a single simple number. The fitting system is THE thing that made DUST unique, the ability to truly make the suit you are walking around in YOUR suit. Limiting that, I feel, is a bad idea. I can see the reasoning behind making CPU/PG into "Power" but High and low Slots that have multiple functionalities and choices into "Defensive is dampening, HP, or run faster" and "Offensive is damage and precision/range mods for radar" seems like a very poor decision to me.

Still, it is an interesting thought. And if nothing else, I am truly happy that Nova is being looked at as "how can we make this more approachable?" rather than "so how do we get the megabitch in here?"


you can get the same results by doing different things though.

Example of alternative game design

that pic is from Tribes Ascend back in beta. it used loadouts where chossing the class would decide whats available to use. scouts could use sniper rifles, while heavies could not, which was the devs choice when they designed the game.

you can pick a class/suit, choose weapons, equipment, and grenades.
each class /suit has base stats and the perk lets you modify those stats
it's all very simple and straight forward. Nova could easily just swap out the perks for dropsuit modules.

If i gave you a box full of stuff and said, "pick anything 5 things from the box you want," its not hard.
but if i said "pick any 5 things you want from anywhere but they must all fit inside the box" its a lot harder and not as straight forward.

its also harder easier to balance things by adjust the size of the box vs the size of individual items being placed in the box. that's why the fitting resource constraints need to go and be replaced.

balancing overall dropsuit effectiveness is easier when you only need to adjust the dropsuit stats instead the modules being used on them.
Dead Man's Game
#126 Posted: 2017.05.20 09:02
Mejt0 wrote:
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.


But isn't this the point tho :)
As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them.
If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar.
Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose.


But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit.
Nos Nothi
#127 Posted: 2017.05.20 15:20
Derpty Derp wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.


But isn't this the point tho :)
As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them.
If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar.
Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose.


But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit.

I agree. I think that people who think that having just one resource minimizes the choices aren't looking at the bigger picture. There is more than one way to create balance and depth, and doing so more directly will result in fewer complications.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

#128 Posted: 2017.05.20 16:08
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?
Made in Poland...
#129 Posted: 2017.05.20 16:23
Derpty Derp wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.


But isn't this the point tho :)
As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them.
If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar.
Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose.


But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit.


As long as they are able to create something more than just a single dimensional fitting system I will support them on that.
Since I've experienced the old system I know it worked and it would work again.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

Nos Nothi
#130 Posted: 2017.05.20 19:11
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
#131 Posted: 2017.05.20 20:36  |  Edited by: Varoth Drac
Edited: Changed my mind. Deleted my idea for CPU and PG. See below -

Really, the more I think about it, I see no reason for a fitting resource at all. I'd much rather be encouraged to fit class and race aligned modules because they are the ones that make sense (due to bonuses, roles and whotnot), rather than be forced into it by fitting resources. It all feels unnecessary. All you need is a limited number of slots and stacking penalties.

The only reason for a PG resource I can think of, would be if leftover PG is used to speed up cap regen or something like that. So you could deliberately choose to lightly fit your suit to allow for faster cap regen.
Made in Poland...
#132 Posted: 2017.05.20 21:28
One Eyed King wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.


The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver.
From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.

In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

OSG Planetary Operations
#133 Posted: 2017.05.20 21:48
Mejt0 wrote:
One Eyed King wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.


The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver.
From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.

In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.


PG And CPU are indeed known well by EVE and Dust players...but also bear in mind that the target audience is not simply current CCP fans
ROGUE RELICS
#134 Posted: 2017.05.21 04:12
Mejt0 wrote:
One Eyed King wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.


The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver.
From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.

In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.


It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished.

A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs.

Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing.
#135 Posted: 2017.05.21 04:20
Or they could have just added a penalty for using the wrong kind of armor plate on the wrong suit. So have light medium and heavy plates, if you use a medium on a light it gives a % off the HP gained as well as adds a % to the speed penalty. Higher penalty for heavy plates.
Made in Poland...
#136 Posted: 2017.05.21 11:07
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:
One Eyed King wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.


The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver.
From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.

In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.


PG And CPU are indeed known well by EVE and Dust players...but also bear in mind that the target audience is not simply current CCP fans


By well known I meant that people who work for CCP know how to work with it. So it would be easier (my guess) to work around.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

Made in Poland...
#137 Posted: 2017.05.21 11:14
DeathwindRising wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:
One Eyed King wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.


The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver.
From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.

In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.


It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished.

A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs.

Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing.


I don't recall it being a big issue. Scouts who stacked hp were cannon food for every assault out there.
And this has nothing to do with PG/CPU Smile as it's a mod's problem.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

ROGUE RELICS
#138 Posted: 2017.05.21 13:56
Mejt0 wrote:
DeathwindRising wrote:
Mejt0 wrote:
One Eyed King wrote:
DUST Fiend wrote:
If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there?

All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.


The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver.
From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.

In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.


It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished.

A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs.

Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing.


I don't recall it being a big issue. Scouts who stacked hp were cannon food for every assault out there.
And this has nothing to do with PG/CPU Smile as it's a mod's problem.


You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse



Made in Poland...
#139 Posted: 2017.05.21 15:42
DeathwindRising wrote:

You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse


Again, this has nothing to do with PG/CPU but with how the mods and suits worked Roll
Hit detection was a myth as people had no problems shooting down my cal scout and I was in the meta day one Twisted

It wasn't about their ease of fitting shields but how much they gained duing so + at the time you didn't need any ewar mods and bonuses were recompensating that.
Later after the changes Cal scout was useless.

Vigilant Pilot

Happy Hunting

Nos Nothi
#140 Posted: 2017.05.21 15:54
Mejt0 wrote:
DeathwindRising wrote:

You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse


Again, this has nothing to do with PG/CPU but with how the mods and suits worked Roll
Hit detection was a myth as people had no problems shooting down my cal scout and I was in the meta day one Twisted

It wasn't about their ease of fitting shields but how much they gained duing so + at the time you didn't need any ewar mods and bonuses were recompensating that.
Later after the changes Cal scout was useless.

The fact that it didn't have to do directly with CPU/PG is exactly why I don't buy that the two resources are needed for creating balance.

Looking at Min and Gal Scouts, it was easier for the Gal Scouts to take advantage of their Dampening bonuses without much fitting sacrifice, while Kin Cats were so expensive that taking advantage of Minja speed was much more of a sacrifice (and Gal Scouts could still get within .1 or .01 m/s of top Minja speed).

All of this is to say that CPU/PG's existence was as much a hindrance to balance and fitting optimization as it was a strategic consideration.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

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