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Discussion - Should PG and CPU be combined into one?

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Obscure Reference
#41 Posted: 2017.05.16 16:23
DUST Fiend wrote:
Sigh

They're finally considering capacitors...and it's for dropsuits

Wtf.

One Eyed King wrote:
From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth.

My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur.

If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game.

They want to add real time resource management to ground based run and gun gameplay, so this argument sort of falls flat on its face lol.


It depends what kind of modules are available, if it's activate a shield hardener before storming the stronghold it would work well, but activate reps in the middle of a firefight could feel frustrating if the controls are not perfect
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
#42 Posted: 2017.05.16 16:23  |  Edited by: Varoth Drac
I am in favour. Fitting depth can be achieved in more intuitive ways than using both CPU and PG. It's not necessary.
Of course, the dual resource method could be made more intuitive, but if CCP are looking to streamline things, this is a good candidate.

I was going to suggest, for example, that if shields and armour and speed (kincats) all shared the same slots, issues such as dual tanking and a lack of fitting variety and depth can be avoided without the need for pg/cpu. Looks like Rattati has beaten me to it with the shared module slot comment. I assume this means all modules will compete, instead of highs and lows. Nice.

You can't dual tank if your shields take up armour slots. Also, I would argue that any buff such as speed, regen, dampening etc. should come at the cost of hp. I like the shared slot solution.

In reality I don't think the pg/cpu resources added a great deal to Dust. I'm actually struggling to think of a good example of where it added to the game.
Solo Zen
#43 Posted: 2017.05.16 17:00  |  Edited by: Clone D
How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc.
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 Posted: 2017.05.16 17:05
Clone D wrote:
How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc.


with shared equipment, heavy's will simply become more powerful. There is no reason to build such inequality into the foundation

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Solo Zen
#45 Posted: 2017.05.16 18:08  |  Edited by: Clone D
CCP Rattati wrote:
Clone D wrote:
How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc.


with shared equipment, heavy's will simply become more powerful. There is no reason to build such inequality into the foundation


Is Nova being built from a perspective of guerrilla warfare, or a more traditional style where both combatants stand still and shoot each other until one falls down?

I view the performance advantage of being lightweight and maneuverable as a counter balance to heavy clunky suits. While maneuverability is quantifiable in terms of meters per second or rotations per second, skill and tactical thinking can compound the power of maneuverability as leverage to take down a slower opponent with more armor/shield HP.

In terms of balance between classes (logi, heavy, scout), who is to say that in wartime, a heavy suit can't be used as a logi? I am inclined to think, let the player mount anything on a suit that he/she wants as long as it is within the physical constraints of what the suit can support.

Maybe beginners will gravitate toward heavy suits, but trained and refined players will have the skill to survive in lighter classes and they will be rewarded with the advantage of maneuverability. Please keep dexterity in the equation, enough so that if leveraged properly that it can determine the outcome of a face off.

To me, the skill required to play Dust 514 was the joy. Running, straifing and aiming simultaneously, while deciding on the most effective weapon to handle a situation was the juice.

TLDR; please keep an element of juice for dynamic players who move and bound and soloists who like to take on entire squads with smarts alone.
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
#46 Posted: 2017.05.16 20:05
Clone D wrote:
How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc.

I feel weight is kind of redundant. Limited module slots is effectively the same thing and so I don't feel it would be necessary to include weight and incumbency.

As for speed variations, if there are modules that increase your speed there's no need for things that decrease it, since that's the same as an absence of speed enhancements.
ROGUE RELICS
#47 Posted: 2017.05.16 21:00
why not do both?

CCP talked about consumables. Why not have cosumables that alter fitting? Allowing vets to tweak their fits, with the limitation of not being able to all the time.

Eve Online has the mechanic in place already with drugs, and implants/rigs to lesser extent.


#48 Posted: 2017.05.16 21:08  |  Edited by: Moorian Flav
Varoth Drac wrote:
As for speed variations, if there are modules that increase your speed there's no need for things that decrease it, since that's the same as an absence of speed enhancements.

In EVE, there are active speed boost modules (afterburner and MWD). Therefore, it would be interesting if speed modules were thrown into the mix in Nova as it sounds there would be a capacitor to draw from. Of course, these speed modules in EVE react differently based off of the weight of the ship they are attached to as it does make sense. I think there would be the same kind of thing in Nova if there were indeed speed modules.
Speaking of weight, I'd like to add a thought on Sentinels. For a long time in PC, Sentinels were used by the majority as they were hard to remove from points. As DUST advanced though and added cloaking, super jumping, and other stuff, Sentinels became less and less dominant. Near the end of my time with DUST, Assaults looked to me to be the majority used as they were so versatile. I just hope when it comes to class balancing, CCP will make each class have pros AND cons along with having their own battlefield niche to fill.
Speaking of niches while also thinking of EVE, I hope there will be more gameplay options than there was in DUST such as an option to 1v1 Duel. Blink Sorry if all this got too far off subject.
With all that said, I hope we continue to hear from you, Rattati.

I don't troll; I tell the truth.

I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".

Rogue Clones
The Bastard Cartel
#49 Posted: 2017.05.16 21:42  |  Edited by: Alena Asakura
Quote:
If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from.

I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change.

What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered?


I'm fundamentally against anything that moves further away from EvE. The fact you're even considering something like this means Nova is moving generally away from EvE.

Sorry, not interested.
Nos Nothi
#50 Posted: 2017.05.16 23:03
Pokey Dravon wrote:
One Eyed King wrote:
From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth.

My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur.

If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game.


Except it's not complexity for the sake of complexity. Dual resources allow for a sort of game of finding ratios of the two for each module you use that give you the optimal use of each.

Think of it like Tetris. A single resource is like filling up a space that is 1 block wide and all you have are line pieces. of various legnths. Simple right? All you have to do is drop them

A dual resource resource system is like traditional tertris, where you have blocks of multiple dimensions that have to be fit together in an optimal configuration. More complicated, but which game is more fun?

But that isn't how Dust actually worked...

If you looked at the modules being used, and many of the guns being used, it was less about fitting, and more about what worked best. There was some fitting optimization, but little to none of it had to do with the PG/CPU dynamic, the caveat being that 90% of the time I used one type of suit, and considering it was a Scout M-1, I had a lot of optimizing to do.

I am by no means suggesting that the game be simplified as in your simple Tetris analogy. I simply think that creating those two fitting resources instead of having one is at this point arbitrary. I am open to well thought out reasons why the two are more than arbitrary, and how they can be used to provide depth. It is just that given my experience with Dust, there seemed less rhyme and reason as to how much an item cost, and what I could and couldn't fit given those costs. Some items seemed cheap compared to their benefits, while others cost too many resources and provided too little in return. Maybe their was some logic to it I couldn't grasp, but that is how I perceived it.

I agree with Varoth in that depth can be gained elsewhere.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Nos Nothi
#51 Posted: 2017.05.16 23:07
DUST Fiend wrote:
Sigh

They're finally considering capacitors...and it's for dropsuits

Wtf.

One Eyed King wrote:
From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth.

My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur.

If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game.

They want to add real time resource management to ground based run and gun gameplay, so this argument sort of falls flat on its face lol.

PG/CPU was not a real time resource management portion of Dust...

Fitting was not a real time strategy game...

I was merely staying within the scope of discussion.

Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.

Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

#52 Posted: 2017.05.17 00:30
I was talking about Capacitor....aka, real time resource management....
ROGUE RELICS
#53 Posted: 2017.05.17 00:33  |  Edited by: DeathwindRising
I guess I need to know why we had fitting resources in the first place. Because Eve Online had them?

How far can we break away from Eve Online before the game no longer feels like an Eve game?

Do we trash fitting resources completely?

What if we just did loadouts?

Picking a class and suit would dictate what modules and weapons are available to for you to fit. You still can customize the suit, but only with whatever CCP says you can use for modules and weapons.

No need to track fitting costs, because you can fit anything to the suit that CCP allows you to select. Some items may be locked to specific classes, and some may be used on all classes.

Anything deemed too OP by CCP can simply be tuned by preventing certain combinations of modules weapons. Like No dual tanking because shield dropsuits wouldn't allow you to select armor plates on them (or maybe only certain plates)

and then we could get rid of pg/cpu completely.

---------------------------------------------------------
Solo Zen
#54 Posted: 2017.05.17 00:41  |  Edited by: Clone D
Varoth Drac wrote:
Clone D wrote:
How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc.

I feel weight is kind of redundant. Limited module slots is effectively the same thing and so I don't feel it would be necessary to include weight and incumbency.

As for speed variations, if there are modules that increase your speed there's no need for things that decrease it, since that's the same as an absence of speed enhancements.


I imagine carried weight as more of a fuzzy constraint. Extreme example: Can you carry that HMG with your lightweight suit? Yeah, but it wasn't designed to do so, therefore suffer a 85% speed, turn rate, aiming penalty like I can't lift my cross hairs above the waist line because my suit just can't hold the weight up. So, maybe I can slot a couple of speed modules to counter the effect a little bit, but those have a weight as well, so they contribute to my overall payload (carried weight).

I'm sure that we could devise some kind of logarithmic formula that takes into account the weight capacity as the amount of weight that a suit is classed to handle, and the payload as the total weight of the equipment, weapons, modules (ammo?) being carried, to enforce a fuzzy boundary to the weight limit of the suit. It could form a shallow asymptote for T1 suits and a steep asymptote for T3 suits.

Hypothetical example

light suit (capacity 7.25 kg)
sidearm 1 kg
weapon 2.3 kg
light armor 3.4 kg
scanner 0.4 kg <<<<< If this is all I carry, then I am under the 7.25 kg capacity, so no penalties apply

... but then I really want to add that T3 dampener
dampener 0.7 kg <<<<<< barely over the limit so apply our hypothetical formula yielding a speed/turn/aim penalty of 2.1%
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
#55 Posted: 2017.05.17 02:59
byte modal wrote:
On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests.

Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine.

Is the idea of capacitor still floating around?

Dust definitely had a lack of explanations for things, but I feel like the PC crowd is a bit more capable of grasping concepts than the console crowd in the F2P market and as a whole. You don't necessarily need a PvE example of how to fit a Dropsuit (how would that even work, anyways?) assuming we go back using our MQs, there should be an assistant hologram that can walk around the room and give the players a tour the first time they spawn in. Once they get to the fitting screen, just explain that the CPU and PG of a suit are the limiters of what you can fit.

Scouts United

Gk.0s & Quafes all day.

Solo Zen
#56 Posted: 2017.05.17 13:40  |  Edited by: Clone D
ROMULUS H3X wrote:
Having them combined into one might allow for more possible loadouts. More is better, right! .......right?


I concur. From a standpoint of loadouts, more variety is better. The player can then create a fitting that is more expressive of his/her play style.

From a perspective of EVE lore, I do think that the PG/CPU system contributed to a strong definition of racial progression in the skill tree.

As a new player, I remember feeling like the skill tree was an obstacle, preventing me from exploring other play styles in the game. I was stuck with one class for a long time because it was exceedingly time consuming to branch out to other classes. It was well over 18 months before I had enough skills to finally try and compare the various roles in which I was interested. That is a very long time commitment. The average person might not have enough foresight or patience to wait it out and develop their character, hence losing interest and abandoning the game.
#57 Posted: 2017.05.17 14:13  |  Edited by: Moorian Flav
This thread had turned a bit negative and even argumentative. Due to that, I'd like to point out a few things:

  • Nova is not DUST. Even though all of us liked DUST, Nova is striving to be better than DUST was while also being more welcoming to new players outside of the DUST/EVE universe. To accomplish that, things have to change from what they were in DUST. Rather than simply say you don't like something or arguing against, try coming up with ways to improve what CCP is going with. As for me, earlier in the thread I suggested Civ and T1 suits use power core system while T2 and T3 suits use CPU/PG. That system would accomplish both good NPE while also being true to EVE.
  • Sticking to the point above, Nova should have a better NPE than DUST as DUST basically did not have one due to being stuck in a perpetual beta. Even on EVE side, CCP has improved NPE in recent years by expanding their tutorials and even adding voice so new players do not have to read through screen after screen. Due to that, I am guessing Nova will also have tutorials explaining mostly everything about Nova to new players. Therefore, I would not worry about NPE or players not knowing what is what.
  • Lastly, try to stay on point. Even I had gotten off subject as am overjoyed to get responses from Rattati. In the end though, it's not really helpful as it makes it hard for anyone including CCP to take out anything beneficial from the discussion in the end. One fortunate thing of only the diehards remaining on the forum is this thread did not explode and go off into multiple tangents too much already.

I am not meaning to preach here. I am just trying to move forward with this discussion. In all honesty, we have too few details on Nova to do anything more than provide our opinion and basic ideas around the question provided in the Subject. To provide anything more than that is wasted effort due to the little we actually know about Nova.

I don't troll; I tell the truth.

I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".

LulKlz
#58 Posted: 2017.05.17 15:13  |  Edited by: LOL KILLZ
Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system.
Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova?
It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suitsCool

A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina?
Because that was like the only selling point of the Amarr scout, you could run a long time.

Your friendly Pub match logi

#59 Posted: 2017.05.17 15:14
Alena Asakura wrote:
Quote:
If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from.

I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change.

What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered?


I'm fundamentally against anything that moves further away from EvE. The fact you're even considering something like this means Nova is moving generally away from EvE.

Sorry, not interested.



Yeah, I had a near similar reaction at first but I posted my thoughts and waited for further replies. I thought the first page was good insight and broke a few of my assumptions. If you haven't already, please do read on a bit more. Also, I was wondering when you might pop in ;)

<3

kitten bacon taco (nom)

#60 Posted: 2017.05.17 15:17
LOL KILLZ wrote:
Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system.
Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova?
It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suitsCool

A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina?
Because that was like the only selling point of the Amarr scout, you could run a long time.




Good point: Cap vs. Stamina. What's the difference? Mostly, I'm just fishing for more context in anything that I can get.
*cough* inquiring minds *cough*

kitten bacon taco (nom)

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