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Things I consider unfinished in Dust 514

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Seituoda Taskforce Command
#1 Posted: 2016.02.13 11:03
Hi.

We've gathered a lot of data in Dust 514 and learned a lot about how a New Eden FPS should work. I hope this experience will be used in the next game. However, I don't think we're done quite yet. Here are some of the major topics I would've liked to explore before Dust 514 gets switched off:

- Racial dispersion mechanics
I would expect a Gallente Assault to excel at gaining accuracy when coming out of a full sprint to a full stop, because that's what GalAsses do: Sprint at the target and then pump out massive DPS. On the other hand I'd expect Minmatar suits to maintain the best accuracy while strafing, but not be the best at recovering from a full sprint. There are a bunch of parameters about dispersion that are the same for all suits right now but could be made to define how each suit handles - without having to touch the aiming mechanics.
- Racial movement profiles
Right now racial movement stats are limited to run speed and stamina. I think there's more parameters to explore. A Minmatar suit should have the best lateral movement in relation to it's forward speed. A Gallente suit should have a very fast straight line speed but not be very good at strafing side-by-side. That means we could still look at having the ratios between sprint speed, run speed and strafe speed be a racial property.
Similarly we never looked at suit acceleration. While movement should always feel 'snappy' some form of acceleration could help reinforce the characteristics of the suits. E.g. pressing L3 on an Amarr suit should immediately increase speed by some amount, but full sprint speed is only achieved a few seconds later. However, on a Minmatar suit top speed should be achieved almost instantly.
- Unfinished weapon concepts:
First of, the Swarm Launcher of course. We never figured that one out, did we? Having analysed the SL in detail I can tell you that there's much room for improvement even with the current concept of it. And room for additional concepts.
The HMG is a weapon that completely lost it's vision between the continuous balancing tweaks it received.
The Forgegun also gets a mention here. While the Assault FG works at pure AV it is very limited to this rather small niche and has a tough time being competitive at anything else. This topic is probably mostly about how useful AV weapons should be when no vehicles are nearby. That is completely unexplored territory.
- Map possession
One of the major issues with Dust 514 is that any number of hostiles can be in any place on the map that isn't guarded by the redline. That means you never get to say "We are here, they are there, we are trying to get over there". I believe Domination is a popular gamemode because it offers exactly that knowledge without requiring a Field Commander. Having large maps in an FPS requires mechanics that help map possession. Topics to explore are upgrading the role of unmanned turrets, deployable of capturable sensors, secondary objectives and a specific order to capturable objectives.
- Scanning
This is somewhat related to map possession. In the beta scanning was used to establish map possession of certain areas. On the other hand it took away from direct encounters - which are pretty much the reason we are playing an FPS in the first place. I find it very important to have a clear concept of how scanning should work in a New Eden FPS before setting off to make a new one. If this doesn't improve, the next game will be in the same amount of trouble as Dust 514.
- Eve online integration
The integration with Eve online is as important to a New Eden FPS as the fitting mechanics and damage profiles are. A New Eden FPS has to be able to convincingly communicate that it is happening in the same universe - otherwise it ends up being a worse copy of Battlefield. This is tightly linked to planetary conquest and social play.
- Vehicles
Pretty much all of it. For what reasons should a player decide to deploy a vehicle? How long should he be using it? How much time will he spend actively fighting something? What will he be fighting, what will he be running from? Which modules should be active, which should be passive? How long does it take to regenerate between two fights? How long does it take to go from full health to zero? How expensive should each vehicle be?
I can't overstate how well Rattati has improved the game - both for infantry and vehicles - but it's obvious that during his time we didn't get to fully explore how vehicles should work in a New Eden FPS.
- Tiered play
For lack of a better word. I'm referring to the topic of keeping veteran players and new players separated. For what reasons do veteran players occupy themselves with activities other than killing a bunch of newbies and why are new players interested in engaging with players of their own skill level? Is this possible without having strict rules? What would incentives have to look like?
- Intuitive character progression
When gaming websites reported the end of Dust 514 (yes, some did) I saw some comments that went along the lines of: "Dust 514 still exists? The only thing I remember from trying it back then was that all equipment was consumable unless you bought new stuff with real money." It is very obvious that a large portion of the potential playerbase didn't understand the character progression system one bit before giving up on the game. That is something that hasn't been fixed in 3 years despite the fact that there are a number of concepts to look into.

That's it for now. Do you also have some topics that you would've liked to explore in Dust 514 - even if it's just to gather data for the eventual spiritual successor?
#2 Posted: 2016.02.14 02:31
About your first point, this may be true of a Gallente trained mercenary, but that does not mean he is Gallente. For instance, Kameiras are of the Minmatar race but trained since they are young by the Amarrian Empire.

unbanXxBlazikenxX

Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
#3 Posted: 2016.02.14 18:33
Soto Gallente wrote:
About your first point, this may be true of a Gallente trained mercenary, but that does not mean he is Gallente. For instance, Kameiras are of the Minmatar race but trained since they are young by the Amarrian Empire.


You do realize that we operate in clones, right?
Capital Acquisitions LLC
#4 Posted: 2016.02.15 21:14
One important thing I think is missing from you list, completion of the RPG side to this game. Sure tiered matchmaking would have been great, but what kind of game could call itself and RPG without the PvE aspect.
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
#5 Posted: 2016.02.19 03:51
Soto Gallente wrote:
About your first point, this may be true of a Gallente trained mercenary, but that does not mean he is Gallente. For instance, Kameiras are of the Minmatar race but trained since they are young by the Amarrian Empire.


He's talking about dropsuit functionality rather than the differences between a gallentean character and an amarrian.

Each race's doctrine should show in the performance profiles of that race's dropsuits, so when you go from a gallente assault to an amarr assault there should be a sharp difference in feel between how the suits are built to perform.

I.E. gallente suits snap-accelerate and decelerate to attack in close like demons on the attack, but minmatar are better at firing accurately while in motion, and work better when in constant, sustained motion. Amarr should feel like "tanks" and caldari should feel like angry gods at range, but get slapped up like misbehaving children (in comparison to their ranged efficiency) when a gallente appears in close.

It's a "look/feel" mindset for how the dropsuits perform, I agree wholeheartedly with a massive chunk of the OP's post without reservation.

I will figure out (or try to) what amongst this post are going to be useful to Not-DUST and ask the devs to consider those points.

Thanks for the contribution.

Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.

Seituoda Taskforce Command
#6 Posted: 2016.02.20 14:45
Breakin Stuff wrote:
I will figure out (or try to) what amongst this post are going to be useful to Not-DUST and ask the devs to consider those points.

Thanks for the contribution.
Thanks for the response. If desired I'd very much enjoy help putting these ideas into actual designs.
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
#7 Posted: 2016.02.20 22:04
Except for a few points this OP illustrates a lot of points I have been trying to articulate, honestly, so you and I are largely on the same sheet of music.

We will see what makes it conceptually, as well as in terms of dev time. I can't really predict how this will go. But do me a favor. Line breaks between paragraphs for easy reading please.

Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.

Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
#8 Posted: 2016.02.22 22:51
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Soto Gallente wrote:
About your first point, this may be true of a Gallente trained mercenary, but that does not mean he is Gallente. For instance, Kameiras are of the Minmatar race but trained since they are young by the Amarrian Empire.


He's talking about dropsuit functionality rather than the differences between a gallentean character and an amarrian.

Each race's doctrine should show in the performance profiles of that race's dropsuits, so when you go from a gallente assault to an amarr assault there should be a sharp difference in feel between how the suits are built to perform.

I.E. gallente suits snap-accelerate and decelerate to attack in close like demons on the attack, but minmatar are better at firing accurately while in motion, and work better when in constant, sustained motion. Amarr should feel like "tanks" and caldari should feel like angry gods at range, but get slapped up like misbehaving children (in comparison to their ranged efficiency) when a gallente appears in close.

It's a "look/feel" mindset for how the dropsuits perform, I agree wholeheartedly with a massive chunk of the OP's post without reservation.

I will figure out (or try to) what amongst this post are going to be useful to Not-DUST and ask the devs to consider those points.

Thanks for the contribution.


Honestly they are kind of both right....but also wholly wrong.

In EVE:FPS I wouldn't mind seeing Dropsuits and weapons move away from their 'racial' assignments and more towards who produces them on a corporate level. If we're mercs it stands to reason we do things through military weapons manufacturing corporations rather than Empires.

E.G- Carthum Cr.1 Assault, Vz.0 Commando, Roden Industries Rn.2, Core Complexion Cc.V Sentinel, etc.

Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.

Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
#9 Posted: 2016.02.23 21:04
Vehicles need a mission distinct from infantry. Decide on the mission and fashion the vehicle to fulfill that mission.

DUST just created a bunch of vehicles but didn't give them anything to do so they defaulted to the slayer role. Yes, dropships could transport a squad, but drop uplinks and small maps rendered them redundant. HAVs didn't have anything to shoot at other than infantry or the occasional vehicle, a role easily filled by dropsuits. Hence vehicles became flying dropsuits or dropsuits with treads. That's how we got the ADS. CCP admitted defeat and slapped a gun on it rather than give it something unique to do.
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
#10 Posted: 2016.02.24 22:56
Skihids wrote:
Vehicles need a mission distinct from infantry. Decide on the mission and fashion the vehicle to fulfill that mission.

DUST just created a bunch of vehicles but didn't give them anything to do so they defaulted to the slayer role. Yes, dropships could transport a squad, but drop uplinks and small maps rendered them redundant. HAVs didn't have anything to shoot at other than infantry or the occasional vehicle, a role easily filled by dropsuits. Hence vehicles became flying dropsuits or dropsuits with treads. That's how we got the ADS. CCP admitted defeat and slapped a gun on it rather than give it something unique to do.


I'd hope that objective wise the goals for vehicles and infantry is essentially the same while each represents a different way of achieving that end however I had to admit you are right about vehicles not having a lot to do on the map besides general slayer gameplay or uplink placement.

I do hope CCP does looks at vehicles as they are now a really shakes things up so that each vehicles type fills a useful role.

Most importantly EVE:FPS should squirrel away its objectives and assets inside complexes inaccessible to vehicles or hide them behind arbitrarily placed cover all the time. I can understand some objectives being inaccessible to vehicles but some equally should favour infantry who have vehicle support.

Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.

Eternal Beings
#11 Posted: 2016.02.26 08:01
stopped reading at assault forge gun having a hard time. Lol scrub
Seituoda Taskforce Command
#12 Posted: 2016.02.27 11:27
Jenny Tales wrote:
stopped reading at assault forge gun having a hard time. Lol scrub
I did main FGs as an anti-infantry weapon for two months. I know what I'm talking about here. Big smile

(protip: FG + precision enhancer = solo CQC HMG Sentinel counter ... and lots of lols)

@ Vehicle roles:
It's ok to have vehicles be able to perform infantry slaying as one role. When you want to win a battle killing lots of enemies is one way of achieving that. But then that advantage needs to be counterbalanced with a downside. The system breaks down when calling in an HAV is the optimal way of winning a battle under any circumstance.
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
#13 Posted: 2016.02.28 21:23
Stefan Stahl wrote:
Jenny Tales wrote:
stopped reading at assault forge gun having a hard time. Lol scrub
I did main FGs as an anti-infantry weapon for two months. I know what I'm talking about here. Big smile

(protip: FG + precision enhancer = solo CQC HMG Sentinel counter ... and lots of lols)

@ Vehicle roles:
It's ok to have vehicles be able to perform infantry slaying as one role. When you want to win a battle killing lots of enemies is one way of achieving that. But then that advantage needs to be counterbalanced with a downside. The system breaks down when calling in an HAV is the optimal way of winning a battle under any circumstance.


Except competitively it has never been the optimal way of winning a battle. HAV and vehicle for the most part a largely irrelevant in objective based game modes because they cannot access the objectives to be able to defend them meaningfully.

Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.

True Pros Forever
#14 Posted: 2016.03.01 19:02
True Adamance wrote:
Stefan Stahl wrote:
Jenny Tales wrote:
stopped reading at assault forge gun having a hard time. Lol scrub
I did main FGs as an anti-infantry weapon for two months. I know what I'm talking about here. Big smile

(protip: FG + precision enhancer = solo CQC HMG Sentinel counter ... and lots of lols)

@ Vehicle roles:
It's ok to have vehicles be able to perform infantry slaying as one role. When you want to win a battle killing lots of enemies is one way of achieving that. But then that advantage needs to be counterbalanced with a downside. The system breaks down when calling in an HAV is the optimal way of winning a battle under any circumstance.


Except competitively it has never been the optimal way of winning a battle. HAV and vehicle for the most part a largely irrelevant in objective based game modes because they cannot access the objectives to be able to defend them meaningfully.



vehicles could easily have been used has support roles.

they should have been better suited towards breaking enemy defenses and fortify certain areas . lets say u got enemies dug deep inside a room with lots of uplink and various enemies.

vehicles should be able to reach in there bombard them or essential break those powerful defenses.

i never wanted them to be used as a shark circling around looking for easy kills.

id prefer it if they were basically in the fray with infantry soaking up fire attempting to reduce friendly casualties.

great potential is always there..

it just has yet to be realized

Silent Insanity...

Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
#15 Posted: 2016.03.01 21:51  |  Edited by: True Adamance
CLONE117 wrote:
True Adamance wrote:
Stefan Stahl wrote:
Jenny Tales wrote:
stopped reading at assault forge gun having a hard time. Lol scrub
I did main FGs as an anti-infantry weapon for two months. I know what I'm talking about here. Big smile

(protip: FG + precision enhancer = solo CQC HMG Sentinel counter ... and lots of lols)

@ Vehicle roles:
It's ok to have vehicles be able to perform infantry slaying as one role. When you want to win a battle killing lots of enemies is one way of achieving that. But then that advantage needs to be counterbalanced with a downside. The system breaks down when calling in an HAV is the optimal way of winning a battle under any circumstance.


Except competitively it has never been the optimal way of winning a battle. HAV and vehicle for the most part a largely irrelevant in objective based game modes because they cannot access the objectives to be able to defend them meaningfully.



vehicles could easily have been used has support roles.

they should have been better suited towards breaking enemy defenses and fortify certain areas . lets say u got enemies dug deep inside a room with lots of uplink and various enemies.

vehicles should be able to reach in there bombard them or essential break those powerful defenses.

i never wanted them to be used as a shark circling around looking for easy kills.

id prefer it if they were basically in the fray with infantry soaking up fire attempting to reduce friendly casualties.


<3

I like that idea a lot. A redesign of vehicles roles could be really beneficial if CCP wants to go down that route.

Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.

Axis of Chaos
#16 Posted: 2016.04.05 02:23
Game modes were never "complete" or never felt it, anyway. When I say that, I mean that we only had about five different game modes and really they were either focused on simplying killing the other team (Deathmatch and Team Deathmatch) or acquiring and holding an objective (Skirmish, Domination, and Acquisition).

It should have been a lot more diverse than that. I mean we could go back to the basics of FPS multiplayer modes. Capture the flag, MVP (where your team's mission is to kill certain targets on the opposing side), or plant bomb (where one team plants the "bomb" in order to blow something up and the other team tries to prevent you from succeeding). Really, we should be getting more creative than this but we didn't even get to have a EVE/Dust 514 version of these other simple modes.

Could've made "capture the flag" into a steal the "intel" or "asset" mode. Could've made MVP into a "kill the hacker" mode. Could've simply made a bomb where the main objective is to sabotage the enemy team's structures.

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Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
#17 Posted: 2016.04.07 10:36  |  Edited by: TechMechMeds
What they never completed - interaction with Eve aka the whole point of the game.

If Eve pilots ran things, there would have been an infinitesimal amount more content and dust could have stayed exactly the same lobby format and still had pubs for casuals.

Ccp categorically annoyed the hardcore fans (the ones who paid just to talk in corp vchat and much more) and catered to the lobby casuals.

I am much more hopeful for the pc version as the kind of people that can really give decent feedback and ideas will far outweigh the pond scum (mercs).

I think it will be much better.

Also some semblance of Eve mods would be great and chromosome hp/damage values were good. The ttk was a nice mix between skill based and rpg based.

I am GJRs Renfield.

You heard it here first, I told you so.

DUST University
#18 Posted: 2016.04.12 02:16
Skirmish 1.0

This was one of those game modes that should have been developed more. Unfortunately how it was originally designed made it impossible to do so. Now that NotLegion is being rebuilt from scratch with a better engine and on a more resilient platform CCP should bring this mode back but rebuilding it in a way that makes it work in a proper and stable way that would later enable CCP to improve upon it later on if they need to.

Skirmish 1.0 was the only mode that truly did encourage teamwork on a large scale because of how the match started. Defenders started the match with all objectives captured while the attackers had to fight through 2 layers of fortifications setup by the defenders within a set time frame. This was at a time when logistics vehicles were actually a thing and tankers were aided by them.

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